The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit

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Author Topic: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit (Read 477119 times)

MileHigh	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #625 on: 2012-03-15, 04:26:25 »
Group: Guest	Magluvin: Quote What happened to the oscillation? That "alternating current" through the circuit during oscillation? That alternating current would have to flow through one led at a time depending on the phase. This one lights, then that one lights with each phase of operation. No? Quote We have two rails of LED's. The one takes current from the battery supply. The other takes current from CEMF. TWO OPTIONAL PATHS. Now. We've got an oscillation. Voltage moves equally - above and below zero. Therefore, correspondingly, the current flows above and below zero in each oscillation. Therefore - one would expect the current to move through either one or other of those rails - depending on that polarity. NOW. NOTA BENE. *There is NO CORRUPTION OF THAT OSCILLATING WAVEFORM - ON EITHER SIDE OF THOSE LED's.* YET. Only ONE RAIL STAYS LIT. And the other doesn't even turn on. What the hey??!!! A casse-tête = a head buster! Better your head than your balls. MileHigh

muDped	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #626 on: 2012-03-15, 06:17:38 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Yes, the Q2 Group is configured as Common Gate or Grounded Gate. When the Input to that circuit from the Signal Generator goes sufficiently negative the Q2 MOSFETs will be biased ON and the Signal Generator will furnish current (series aiding) with the batteries. This configuration is low impedance input so the Signal Generator current will be equal to the MOSFET Drain current. Signal Generators typically have considerable internal resistance (50 to 600 Ohms) which must also be accounted for. When the Signal Generator output signal goes sufficiently Positive it will cause Q1 (Common Source or Grounded Source) to turn ON. In this case the Signal Generator will be isolated from the circuit current (Q2 Group is cutoff) and will work exclusively into the High Impedance Gate Capacitance of Q1. Q1 current at this time will be significantly greater than Q2 current was during its conduction interval.. With MOSFETs, as Poynt indicated previously, oscillations are always a possibility. Very interesting discussion though. Reads like a good book with a little bit of everything - suspense, drama, good guys, bad guys, big crowd, too much to drink and a happy ending! OOps, forgot the most important character! The Damsel in distress. What kind of a story would it be without her? --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

FuzzyTomCat	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #627 on: 2012-03-15, 20:59:12 »
Group: Guest	Hi all, As some of you here know I am a moderator at two forums http://convivea.com/forums/index.php and www.hhoforums.com and know what someones responsibility is and your reputation effects your decisions on the sites "Terms of Service" (TOS) is and how members and guests view your actions including postings. I normally when becoming a member of any web site view the TOS and sometimes even copy what ever parts that may effect what I do there, so one of these sites was "Over Unity" .com that I copied references to conduct in July of 2008. QUOTE (#6) Specific Use - You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material. Spam, flooding, advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are also forbidden on this forum. The Terms of Service (TOS) at "Over Unity" .com was changed shortly there after in September 2008 ..... to read QUOTE (#6) Specific Use - You further agree not to use the website to send or post any message or material that is unlawful, harassing, defamatory, abusive, indecent, threatening, harmful, vulgar, obscene, sexually orientated, racially offensive, profane, pornographic or violates any applicable law and you hereby indemnify the Website Owner against any loss, liability, damage or expense of whatever nature which the Website Owner or any third party may suffer which is caused by or attributable to, whether directly or indirectly, your use of the website to send or post any such message or material. As you can see the you will not post any material which is false or inaccurate is missing. This is a very incompetent thing not to have in a forum and by it's removal has opened the door for any fraudulent device, construction details or bogus claims on anything. It also gives a "License" for members to provide information on results or documentation to be wrong and misleading. This gives the forum administration no recourse to do anything against that member for what was posted or replied to in a thread if portrayed incorrect. The other concern is that reading closely at the TOS at "Over Unity" .com there maybe some Data Mining going on there, with unique restrictions on posting, edits or image inserts and terms around them ..... but that's something else all together. http://www.overunity.com/5554/terms-and-conditions/ So ..... Rosemary is well within her right to "LIE" through her teeth there, but of course that's assuming she has teeth some say she has fangs. Fuzzy edit repaired - www.hhoforums.com (link) « Last Edit: 2012-03-15, 21:53:42 by FuzzyTomCat »

muDped	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #628 on: 2012-03-15, 21:42:55 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: FuzzyTomCat As you can see the you will not post any material which is false or inaccurate is missing. There may be "legal" reasons for the modification. The "false or inaccurate" hurdle may have been unnecessary and/or impossible. To determine if any matter is false or inaccurate may not be within the realm of finality. Look at Politics in America and the Obama birth question. Quote from: FuzzyTomCat So ..... Rosemary is well within her right to "LIE" through her teeth there, but of course that's assuming she has teeth some say she has fangs. Hmmm... Could this be "false or inaccurate?" --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

FuzzyTomCat	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #629 on: 2012-03-15, 22:01:24 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Dumped on 2012-03-15, 21:42:55 There may be "legal" reasons for the modification. The "false or inaccurate" hurdle may have been unnecessary and/or impossible. To determine if any matter is false or inaccurate may not be within the realm of finality. Look at Politics in America and the Obama birth question. Hmmm... Could this be "false or inaccurate?" Well ..... how can there be a explanation for the word F**K (uc) posted at Over Unity .com ?? Do a "search" http://www.overunity.com/search/ you might find ..... eleven pages ?? Just get rid of the whole TOS because it's irrelevant ?? Fuzzy

giantkiller	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #630 on: 2012-03-15, 22:02:10 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1593 Frequency equals matter...	Let the PHAT Tuesday parade begin... (Prophetically hyped and Tongued) --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

giantkiller	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #631 on: 2012-03-15, 22:03:15 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1593 Frequency equals matter...	Quote from: giantkiller on 2012-03-15, 22:02:10 Let the PHAT Tuesday parade begin... (Prophetically Hyped And Tongued) Pathetically harrangued and tortured, too. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

muDped	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #632 on: 2012-03-15, 22:28:33 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Quote from: Killer of Giants Let the PHAT Tuesday parade begin... (Prophetically Hyped And Tongued) Grin Pathetically harangued and tortured, too. Well said mate! Time to knock a few back and think seriously about all the "strangeness" in the air... Quote from: FuzzyTomCat Just get rid of the whole TOS because it's irrelevant ?? Enforcement of Policy is always difficult. Not every situation which arises can be dealt with to the satisfaction of all participants. There is much reliance on the integrity and honesty of all registrants, among other things. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

FuzzyTomCat	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #633 on: 2012-03-17, 21:41:40 »
Group: Guest	Hi Guys, I wanted to make sure members and guest here has seen the last posting of mine at OU .com ....... the image views are incredible .... Rosemary and/or the NERD RAT contributors as of the time of this posting until now has not questioned or responded to my posting or reply at OU .com __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ POST OVER - http://www.overunity.com/11675/another-small-breakthrough-on-our-nerd-technology/msg315729/#msg315729 Reply #1117 on: Today at 12:45:43 AM Hi members and guests, Being I've asked the question on which NERD RAT device schematic dates go where three times, and never got a response from Rosemary or a NERD RAT team member on the OU forum. So, I and all concerned NERD RAT device verifiers and replicators will use the obvious COP>INFINITY DEMONSTRATION video of 12 MARCH 2011 as a reference to the two separate and different schematics without any exceptions. FROM_CONCEPTION_TO_12_MARCH_2001_Q1_x5_NERD_RAT_DEVICE.JPG ( From DEVICE "Conception" to 12 MARCH 2011 Q1 x5 "NERD RAT" DEVICE SCHEMATIC ) ( * 561 views ) 12_MARCH_2001_and_On_Q1_Q2-Q4_NERD_RAT_DEVICE.png ( COP>INFINITY DEMONSTRATION 12 MARCH 2011 and "ON" Q1 / Q2-Q4 "NERD RAT" DEVICE SCHEMATIC ) ( * 167 views ) THIS TAKES EFFECT AS OF MARCH 17, 2012 at 12:50 am GMT Fuzzy ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ***** ( * ADDED VIEW TOTALS ) **** . ------------------------ The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit FROM_CONCEPTION_TO_12_MARCH_2001_Q1_x5_NERD_RAT_DEVICE.JPG (38.98 kB, 692x479 - viewed 769 times.) The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit 12_MARCH_2001_and_On_Q1_Q2-Q4_NERD_RAT_DEVICE.png (208.57 kB, 640x464 - viewed 736 times.)

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #634 on: 2012-04-27, 14:01:34 »
Group: Guest	Hi Poynt, How are things with Rosemary's circuit. Were you able to get negative power?

poynt99	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #635 on: 2012-04-27, 14:26:04 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Hi Gibbs. I have not built the circuit yet. TK over at OU has been doing a number of tests on his version of the RAT circuit, and I asked him to make the "battery" power measurement to see if it was negative. It is. We are now waiting to see what happens when he adds some caps across the batteries (to kill any remaining oscillation across them) and takes a battery voltage measurement right off them. I expect the battery power measurement to change to a positive value. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

poynt99	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #636 on: 2012-04-27, 14:29:15 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Reference the attached sim scope shot, the power computation becomes less negative as the battery p-p voltage drops. The reason? Looking at the unclipped peak, we are multiplying the VCSR peak (neg) and the VBAT peak (pos), so the higher the VBAT peak, the higher the negative product of the two. When averaged, the result is a larger negative average power. It is not until the VBAT trace becomes almost flat that the true power computation is realized. ------------------------ The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit Neg_decrease01.png (15.3 kB, 702x611 - viewed 1223 times.) --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #637 on: 2012-04-27, 14:52:34 »
Group: Guest	I think it's true that the negative comes from high battery positive peak when current reverse. Not sure if capacitor would help flattening it. We'll see. I see the high peak as resistance, higher current, higher voltage. It is also good to see if the area under positive current and negative current trace. This represent the amount of charge coming in and out of the battery.

poynt99	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #638 on: 2012-04-27, 15:12:16 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	The oscillation is due to circuit inductance, so those peaks may look impressive, but it is mostly apparent power, not real. The average current is actually slightly positive, even though the trace itself can be perceived to be negative dominant. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #639 on: 2012-04-28, 01:32:08 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-04-27, 15:12:16 The oscillation is due to circuit inductance, so those peaks may look impressive, but it is mostly apparent power, not real. The average current is actually slightly positive, even though the trace itself can be perceived to be negative dominant. The circuit inductance is what requires for oscillation, well, it is required for all oscillators. If you reduce the circuit's inductance, the peak would reduced, but power can't be apparent because the math function used is for calculating real power. If you take away all inductance...the circuit won't oscillate and it's just the same as straight DC heating. I'm surprised sim can put out negative wattage as obtained in the real experiment. Perhaps sim has been showing extra energy the day it programmed. I know you see this negative wattage as something ordinary, but I will show you something interesting. Assuming that the battery doesn't reverse polarity. A current going out of the battery have positive power and current flow back into the battery have negative power. The reason the math trace shown negative power because there is more power (hence energy) when current flow back into the battery even though less charges flowing back into the battery. Intuition would say more charges flowing out of the battery means more energy, right? We can see this with a simple analysis. Let's use the VCSR energy dissipation I^2R. Now separate the current waveform into positive and negative. Integrate I^2R over that cycle. You can see that current flowing out of the battery have less energy dissipation than current flowing back. The analysis for CSR hold true for all resistance the circuit contains. The conclusion is there are more energy when current reverse and hence the negative wattage.

poynt99	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #640 on: 2012-04-28, 03:53:11 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	I'm not sure what you're trying to sat Gibbs. You believe that the circuit is in fact OU? If not, then what are you trying to say? The negative wattage is a measurement artifact. There is nothing wrong with SPICE. Indeed the measurement method is correct, but the measurement points are not. You should not be surprised that the sim can also show the negative wattage. The real problem is that it is garbage in, garbage out. The power measurement obtained using the points prescribed by the RATs is no more accurate than if we used the voltage measured between your toes times the CSR voltage. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #641 on: 2012-04-28, 04:23:45 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-04-28, 03:53:11 I'm not sure what you're trying to sat Gibbs. You believe that the circuit is in fact OU? If not, then what are you trying to say? The negative wattage is a measurement artifact. There is nothing wrong with SPICE. Indeed the measurement method is correct, but the measurement points are not. You should not be surprised that the sim can also show the negative wattage. The real problem is that it is garbage in, garbage out. The power measurement obtained using the points prescribed by the RATs is no more accurate than if we used the voltage measured between your toes times the CSR voltage. Aw come on, you have to ask me if I believe that circuit is OU? I didn't say say there is something wrong with SPICE. How do you describe your garbage in, garbage out? What I'm saying is When the battery discharge, it gives 100 units of energy. 10 units is lost to resistance, 90 stored in inductance. Inductance then return that 90 units to the battery. 20 units produced to resistance, 80 made it back to the battery. Your turn. Even the voltage comparison between your toes times CSR voltage, it would still show negative wattage man... if you zoom in enough.

exnihiloest	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #642 on: 2012-04-28, 13:13:29 »
Group: Guest	It is easy to visualize power in LTspice. You just create a trace with formula UI where U is the generator voltage and I the current. In my example not related to Ainslie's circuit, the voltage is "V(n001)-V(p001)" and the current is I(Vin), so the formula is I(Vin)(V(n001)-V(p001)). The trace is the power. When the trace is displayed, use crtl+click on the formula above the trace: this will open a small box giving the average power and energy during the time of observation. If they are negative, it is the generator that provides the energy. It's a very useful tool. ------------------------ The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit LtspicePowerEnergy.jpg (31.98 kB, 564x306 - viewed 590 times.)

BEP	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #643 on: 2012-04-28, 14:49:11 »
Group: Guest	Just because a trace swings up or down indicates negative or positive Watts? Isn't 'negative' or 'positive' Watts the same mistake as RMS Watts?

poynt99	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #644 on: 2012-04-28, 15:06:33 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-04-28, 14:49:11 Just because a trace swings up or down indicates negative or positive Watts? Isn't 'negative' or 'positive' Watts the same mistake as RMS Watts? The display is instantaneous power, so yes + or - power is valid, although meaningless for the most part. Once obtained, you need to take the MEAN of that trace to get the true average power. Now you have something meaningful, if the measurement points were correct in the first place. Not sure if that answered your question? --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

BEP	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #645 on: 2012-04-28, 17:56:13 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-04-28, 15:06:33 The display is instantaneous power, so yes + or - power is valid, although meaningless for the most part. Once obtained, you need to take the MEAN of that trace to get the true average power. Now you have something meaningful, if the measurement points were correct in the first place. Not sure if that answered your question? Yes. The most important part is 'the measurement points'. I suppose it is my different take on things creating a bit of a problem for me. Watts is not a value that does any work or has any direction because it has no velocity(?)(wrong term but it isn't a value over time or distance). Having less leaving a battery than returning just means something is overlooked. Having a 100W light means nothing on your electric bill until you start measuring the Watts and the time running together. So, having higher Watts returning to the battery is not a problem. Such would happen with a little inductance. The mistake is that Watts means nothing unless you include time. If the measurement methods are decent and the right math is used doesn't really matter. The battery runs down anyway. Of course, we know this.

poynt99	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #646 on: 2012-04-28, 18:38:26 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	"Time" is only required to obtain ENERGY. IF the circuit runs consistently vs. time with no variations in voltage, current, frequency or duty cycle (like most oscillators), then measuring the average power is all that is required to see if the battery is delivering or receiving net power and energy. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #647 on: 2012-04-29, 05:17:17 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-04-28, 17:56:13 Yes. The most important part is 'the measurement points'. I suppose it is my different take on things creating a bit of a problem for me. Watts is not a value that does any work or has any direction because it has no velocity(?)(wrong term but it isn't a value over time or distance). Having less leaving a battery than returning just means something is overlooked. Having a 100W light means nothing on your electric bill until you start measuring the Watts and the time running together. So, having higher Watts returning to the battery is not a problem. Such would happen with a little inductance. The mistake is that Watts means nothing unless you include time. If the measurement methods are decent and the right math is used doesn't really matter. The battery runs down anyway. Of course, we know this. To determine if the battery is recharging, simply look at the CSR current waveform. More positive area means battery running down, more negative area means battery charging up. To determine energy time is needed in addition to watts. The CSR measurement indicated that watt x time for the discharge is less than watt x time for the charging.

exnihiloest	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #648 on: 2012-04-29, 11:50:06 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-04-28, 14:49:11 ... Isn't 'negative' or 'positive' Watts the same mistake as RMS Watts? They are not a mistake. They follow from equations and show the direction of the energy. When the current flows inside a component from the positive terminal to the negative terminal, the component is a receiver, it consumes energy. When the current flows from the negative terminal to the positive terminal, the component is a generator, it provides energy. The power being voltage times current, it is perfectly logic that the power is positive or negative, depending on the convention we took for the current direction. The power is negative for a generator providing energy, positive for a receiver consuming energy. For instance in an oscillating LC circuit, L and C play alternatively at each signal period, the role of generator or receiver: the energy goes back and forth between them. Not only instantaneous power but also mean power and energy can be either positive or negative, and this can be displayed in LTspice. Suppose you have a 10v generator G with an internal resistance R and a capacitor C in series. When you switch on the generator, it charges C up to 10v. The energy goes from G to C. By convention for the current direction, the power and the energy are negative because the generator provides the energy, its internal energy is depleted. Now suppose that C was initially charged at 20v. When you switch on the circuit, C provides energy that is dissipated in the internal resistance of the generator. C provides energy to G. So the generator is receiving energy, it is now a receiver, power and energy are positive.

BEP	Re: The Rosemary Ainslie Circuit « Reply #649 on: 2012-04-29, 12:47:33 »
Group: Guest	Too early for posting. A little caffeine and I'll be back. « Last Edit: 2012-04-29, 13:58:03 by WaveWatcher »

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