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Author Topic: Replication of ION's bifilar  (Read 96872 times)
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The magnet is static, so I don't see how it could cause a change at all.

I'm worried we all must be susceptible to knowledge via repetition.

The magnet's field is static. That fact has little to do with a magnet affecting the inductance of a ferrous cored coil. And, it most certainly does.

Almost every statement in ANY book is nothing but theory - no matter how well proven.

I just read a recent article that surprised me. Now, the coneheads are thinking an electron is actually a dipole with the apparent charge only being the actual dominant charge  C.C

In short, the cloud that is the electron is spinning and that spin causes a deformed shape - wider at the equator than between the poles. This then would be why a particle can have negative neutral or positive charge. It depends on whether it spins and which direction. There was also talk about many particles actually being the same except for the spin factor.

These weren't free energy folks publishing, either.

This is why nothing is true until it is confirmed on my bench. Too much of what we learn is hogwash or will be.

   

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I performed numerous coil and magnet configurations.
The goal was to get the output stabilized to see other events.

Here is one of my tests.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmL19smxww[/youtube]

Not only to catch the illusive but to capture it. I believe my attempts got closer and closer until I blew up my scope.
Then I wittled it down to this configuration shown by Wattsup that blew up my scope:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5IAwC5qVYw[/youtube]

And then to this which kicked the house:
Heavy dielectric...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=5nGZNmi4Xdo[/youtube]


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Strange! You could easily create an observable effect, hence the inductance of the transformer windings change when you attach a magnet to the core, which in AC applications does matter. (2*pi*f*L)

Anyway what do you think about the question relating to rectifier losses? Is there more loss, or not, with the magnet in place?

The magnet's field is static. That fact has little to do with a magnet affecting the inductance of a ferrous cored coil. And, it most certainly does.

Yeah, I was looking at this from the "will this increase the energy in the circuit" perspective, rather than "will it change the efficiency" perspective.  In my experiments, I was trying to increase energy with a static magnetic field, by using various ideas.  Everyone knows a magnet will change the inductance, but there is no gain.

Magnetic fields are a means to polarize space in a predictable way and that is all that I use them for. Good luck to anyone using a magnet for other reasons.  Keep in mind that this region of polarized space moves with the magnet - which is very important.

   

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By using a wired core we create a magnetic field that is not tied to a strict magnetic domain which we can then pump.


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[edit:    I'll start another thread soon and discuss transmission]
« Last Edit: 2011-11-15, 20:21:51 by EMdevices »
   
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EM

Thank you for the sims and the transmission line theory. We are in agreement that the bifilar is a transmission line.

Now the problem seems to be in modelling a transmission line with dynamic qualities (wire movement i.e. pulsed physical wire separation or repulsion that changes characteristic impedance).

This is rather more difficult to model and why Peterae and I are doing the bench experiments.

We started these experiments based on your early EUREKA! moments in the other thread and papers you wrote showing there might be OU with wires in repulsion. Have you now withdrawn these theories and suppositions?

I also had another agenda, trying to get vibration in wires with narrow high current pulses of low average power to simulate an SM TPU washboard and gyro effect.

Something interesting is happening here that was unexpected and accidental in my early testing. I have not had the time to go back to it at this time, but intend to, and urge you to actually build up a  test set and see for yourself.

Next round of tests I will be gating bursts of high current pulses (variable) with relaxation or off time between bursts (also a variable)

As always we appreciate your input and the transmission line refresher course. Keep it coming.


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Ion and Peter,

If either of you have a capitance meter, can you connect a small cap of a few pf to the meter and while it is on place the cap near your vibrating wires.  Try different orientations.  Does the capacitance reading change?  If so, does it increase?  An increase may be indicative of an increase in permittivity.

I expect permeability to increase, so this is another angle for probing.
   

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ION as you know in my last tests i was getting latch up, it does look like i was getting the Avalanche mode on power off, what do i need to do to get the pulsing you are seeing.

Primarily what is causing the latch up? Is it because i am drawing too much current.

Do i need more primary turns on my CMC
or
Maybe a beefier Thyristor or drop my choke and try the resistor.

Do i also need more voltage to make the Avalanche appear, i could rewire my transformers to give me stepped up mains voltage or about 400V
   
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Peterae:

Although I no longer recommend the ringing choke method in order to generate the high required voltage for the avalanche burst, you can try that. You may need to try a different choke, 200 Ohm DCR, like the one I posted a picture of early on.

I am leaning more towards a gated diac circuit, with the voltage kept close to the avalanche threshold, like rev4 circuit, but I have not had time to try it.

Latchup is normal when you get to a certain current level, so rather than trying to push the frequency and hence required current, I would think the gated burst method might work better and not heat the SCR, which contributes to latchup.

Latchup also tells you that you have good tight coupling between your primary and secondary, hence not enough leakage inductance that would be required to "ring" the triac to the off state by reversing the voltage across it, thus resetting it for the next pulse.

Some inductance external to the pulse transformer primary would probably help, how much I cannot say at this time.

Does latchup occur when you try to push too much current?

More voltage will get you closer to avalanche, but don't use a high pulse repetition rate.

The last snowstorm here brought down trees and power lines. I'm still cleaning up my property, lots of downed tree limbs and widowmakers still hanging high, so may be a while before I hit the bench again.

Be patient, the rain is coming and I may get some bench time.


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Quote
Although I no longer recommend the ringing choke method in order to generate the high required voltage for the avalanche burst, you can try that. You may need to try a different choke, 200 Ohm DCR, like the one I posted a picture of early on.

I must spend some time looking into this, i have not tried different chokes.

Quote
I am leaning more towards a gated diac circuit, with the voltage kept close to the avalanche threshold, like rev4 circuit, but I have not had time to try it.
I like the gated method, but must try and achieve the avalanche and violent bifilar movement before i move onto this.

Quote
Latchup is normal when you get to a certain current level, so rather than trying to push the frequency and hence required current, I would think the gated burst method might work better and not heat the SCR, which contributes to latchup.

I am pretty sure i am getting latch up before i attain avalanche mode as i only get the bursts when powering down, even when i do see the bursts i still don't see any movement in my bifilar.

Quote
Does latchup occur when you try to push too much current?
The circuit works without latch up at quiet a low voltage, as i wind up the variac it goes straight to latch up, because of the low voltage this happens at then i have no hope of avalanche.

Quote
The last snowstorm here brought down trees and power lines. I'm still cleaning up my property, lots of downed tree limbs and widowmakers still hanging high, so may be a while before I hit the bench again.
Glad you are OK there ION sounds real nasty, we had the promise of some a while ago, but it's been very warm for this time of year, only having the heating on for half hour a day at the moment, last year at this time we had a foot over night and that was probably the most i have seen since a kid, we don't normally get much snow down on the south east coast of the UK, last 2 years we have had a fair amount for us though, we are sort of expecting the worst this year LOL, last year my local hospital had over 800 people admitted over the weekend because there was no grit and everyone was falling over  C.C





   
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Ion and Peter,

If either of you have a capitance meter, can you connect a small cap of a few pf to the meter and while it is on place the cap near your vibrating wires.  Try different orientations.  Does the capacitance reading change?  If so, does it increase?  An increase may be indicative of an increase in permittivity.

I expect permeability to increase, so this is another angle for probing.

G,

I'm glad you mentioned that experiment. I performed it some years ago, along with how a magnet affects the inductance of a ferrous cored coil.

I think I'll redo that test as I remember the more dielectric involved the more sensitive the capacitor as a sensor to ambient charge. The issue was how well the capacitor was shielded against outside influence.

There was a sensor built just for that. It was effectively a three layered capacitor.

BTW: I'm not dismissing your statements about changing space factors. They do change but I've found the change is almost always localized. 'Almost' because I haven't tested every possibility.

WW

P.S.

Have we decided whether the books are correct that increasing the Gaussian surface area increases inductance without exception? I have the opinion there are exceptions. Ion has confirmed there is an increase when Peterae has stated otherwise (because fingers were used to spread the wires?).

Just curious.

   
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From Peterae:

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The circuit works without latch up at quiet a low voltage, as i wind up the variac it goes straight to latch up, because of the low voltage this happens at then i have no hope of avalanche.

 I suspect if you are using a choke it has a very low DC resistance. Try using the primary of a small audio transformer like the type from a tabletop tube radio, a vertical output transformer from a tube TV or something with a higher Dc resistance and 1 to 2 Henries.

If this still produces latchup, eliminate the choke and try a resistor in the range of 5K to 50K.

If all this does not help, I suspect your SCR has a low holding current value. You may need a huskier old device with a higher holding current requirement. I was using an old NL576N with a holding current requirement of 500mA. What is the holding current for your device?

Holding current defines the amount of current necessary to keep the SCR latched on after the trigger pulse goes away.

We want to stay under this value in order to get the SCR to "self turn off" due to this parameter not being met.

Of course we get a little help from ringing, but when we push the current too high neither will help us turn the SCR off.

Does this make sense?

Maybe I can come up with a workaround for your device.


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Ion has confirmed there is an increase when Peterae has stated otherwise (because fingers were used to spread the wires?).

When i scope my bifilar i had large 6kHz pulses on it and this was messing up the measurements on my LCR meter, i moved the setup home and i got the correct readings
   

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Thanks for explaining things ION, just measured my MOT  choke at 20 Ohms i will look at this, i have some 1.85km Brooke's coils i made for the Tetra setup of Spherics, maybe i can put a large bolt through the middle, or even put a core through a spool of wire

BT151-500
Latching current = 10-40mA
Holding current = 7-20mA wow this is way low compared to your 500mA

EDIT there must be a Thyristor for sale on ebay, i am looking

   

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P.S.

Have we decided whether the books are correct that increasing the Gaussian surface area increases inductance without exception? I have the opinion there are exceptions. Ion has confirmed there is an increase when Peterae has stated otherwise (because fingers were used to spread the wires?).

Just curious.


I think there are exceptions because of our limited understanding and misinterpretations.

For example, we are told and shown that moving a magnet into a coil of wire induces a current in the wire.  Pulling same magnet out reverses the current.  In both instances, magnitude is a function of field density and rate of change.  

The explanations stop there. Nowhere do they mention "why" things are this way.  so, I have had to fill in the blanks on my own.

A magnet has only  a single pole, not two.  One pole is the top and the other is the bottom of the same entity.  The polarity of induced current is reversed, but if the mag field density and velocity are the same then the magnitude of the current produced is the same even if reversed.

Current is induced by differences in density (potential or pressure) - period.  Whether you aid angular momentum or oppose it determines polarity - period.
   
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Thanks for explaining things ION, just measured my MOT  choke at 20 Ohms i will look at this, i have some 1.85km Brooke's coils i made for the Tetra setup of Spherics, maybe i can put a large bolt through the middle, or even put a core through a spool of wire

BT151-500
Latching current = 10-40mA
Holding current = 7-20mA wow this is way low compared to your 500mA

EDIT there must be a Thyristor for sale on ebay, i am looking



Yes, I just found the data sheet for your device, that is a low holding current for sure.

 Sorry we didn't catch that earlier.


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Ion,

Have you experienced any lift or jumping (vertical movement) of you bifilar wires or is the motion limited to the horizontal plane?
   

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No problem ION my fault i chose the device, for some reason eBay is not showing pictures right now, so i cannot scan down for the old style packages, i am bound to find one, the challenge seems to be to find datasheets for some of these older devices.
I will hunt one down in the morning. Thanks  O0
   
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Ion,

Have you experienced any lift or jumping (vertical movement) of you bifilar wires or is the motion limited to the horizontal plane?

They vibrate in both modes.


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Here is a bit of info that may help.

http://www.circuitstoday.com/scr-turning-off-methods

Quote
In some specially designed SCRs the characteristics are such that a negative gate current increases the holding current so that it exceeds the load current and the device turns-off. The current ratings are presently below 10 A and this type will not be considered further.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/5.html.

Quote
It should be mentioned that SCRs may sometimes be turned off by directly shorting their gate and cathode terminals together, or by "reverse-triggering" the gate with a negative voltage (in reference to the cathode), so that the lower transistor is forced into cutoff. I say this is "sometimes" possible because it involves shunting all of the upper transistor's collector current past the lower transistor's base. This current may be substantial, making triggered shut-off of an SCR difficult at best. A variation of the SCR, called a Gate-Turn-Off thyristor, or GTO, makes this task easier. But even with a GTO, the gate current required to turn it off may be as much as 20% of the anode (load) current!

My favorite trick is a small inductor gate to cathode that rings negative after the positive trigger pulse.

Once you understand the pnp+npn structure of the SCR, you can be more creative.  


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They vibrate in both modes.

Hold a very small conductor over the wires and see if it is pushed away (up).   I.E. Look for a thrust force like Flemming's Left Hand Rule.  Since you are pulsing it, should be repeated rather than only at turn-on.

   
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Peterae:

While doing all this outdoor cleanup, it occurred to me that we can add a third winding to our impedance matching transformer and use it in conjunction with a blocking diode and current limiting resistor to provide the gate turn off current that would allow you to use your existing low holding current SCR's.

I don't know how many turns would have to be added to accomplish this, maybe the secondary itself could be used to couple back a GTO signal. Important thing is to limit the GTO current to only that which is required for turn off, and to block the forward pulse with a diode.

Another way is to tap off the forward negative going pulse input (primary) to the impedance matching transformer, and add a bit of delay before applying it to the gate.

When bench time comes, I am anxious to try these ideas.

I know this is getting messy and maybe it is time to use transistors, but there are many tricks you can do with SCR's which after all are just a pair of complementary transistors in a regenerative configuration.

If you have visited those links I supplied and understood the structure of the SCR and gate turn off mechanism, you will have found another level to designing with SCR's.


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I very much appreciate your time on this ION.
I see 2 draw backs with this driving stage, it would be real handy to have a stage that could be turned on and off faster for a narrower pulse.

The second draw back i see with the thyristor circuit is the amount of wasted energy in the high wattage feed resistor.
If it ever came to the point where we needed an efficient drive circuit then we would need to start again.

Ultimately my intentions are different to you, i would really like to be able to gate 2 stages and delay one stage or even drive 2 stages from a 0-250kHz whitenoise gen, so far the power unit we have built is a great addition to the bench  O0

Having said that i am here for the ride and looking forward to seeing the violent oscillations.

I can certainly try the extra winding to turn off my gate, this is probably a better solution for me as i am having a lot of trouble finding a similar device to you, i can buy new modules but they seem to also be high voltage and this may make it difficult to reach the avalanche mode.

   
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I had some bench time this afternoon and was able to try the gated pulse drive circuit, which worked very well, but did not produce what we are looking for.

I was able to vary the number pulses within the window of on time, but try as I might I could not duplicate the vigorous wire movement. I varied the mark to space ratio allowing for various relaxation times, to no avail.

I'm beginning to suspect this is an elusive effect that may have been caused by some type of resonance in my original configuration.

I think I should back off and rethink this thing and try to go back to my original configuration. I blew two power supplies in the process and am a little queasy about going back to that. I will have to afford some type of protection circuitry, which may kill the effect.

I agree that we have spent a lot of time on this, maybe neglecting some of our other pet projects. Also the SCR circuit does have some drawbacks, and it will take a lot of bench time to address them all. I was never too worried about initial power dissipation in the feed resistor, as this can be easily factored and accounted for. Yes, a more efficient circuit will be nice when it is needed should some OU effect be discovered.

Until I have something positive to report and a working circuit that can be readily replicated with commonly available parts, it's back to the think tank for me.

I wouldn't buy any new SCR parts at this time, maybe the time and money would be better spent on a high current BJT or FET transistor pulser.

Sorry if I have led you down a path that seems fruitless at this time, but I totally understand and agree with your sentiments.


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Maybe the phase difference of voltage and current is different.
   
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