Replication of ION's bifilar

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Author Topic: Replication of ION's bifilar (Read 96868 times)

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #75 on: 2011-11-02, 23:17:57 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Check to see if your core is getting warm. Not sure that these energy absorbing ferrites are the best for the job. This may account for the strange waveform. You want a ferrite that has good transformer characteristics, which a CMC does. As I said, I was using a large CMC from, a video monitor power supply, which had a center hole large enough to pass ten turns of 18 Gauge. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #76 on: 2011-11-03, 11:34:56 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	I would not say the core was that hot, it's been good to wind a few from scratch, but i will hunt for a cmc, i have a couple of duff PC psu's which i have been meaning to dismantle.

Grumpy	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #77 on: 2011-11-03, 13:01:44 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Peterae on 2011-11-02, 20:15:01 anyway i now have 38V on the secondary and i make that I=38/0.171 = 222Amps 222 amps?

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #78 on: 2011-11-03, 13:08:52 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Well i have a 38V pulse going into a non inductive wire which measures 0.171 Ohms, so yes 222.22Amps unless i am missing something?

Grumpy	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #79 on: 2011-11-03, 13:30:27 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Peterae on 2011-11-03, 13:08:52 Well i have a 38V pulse going into a non inductive wire which measures 0.171 Ohms, so yes 222.22Amps unless i am missing something? How can a wire that small carry 222 amps? (That's 8436 watts.) Isn't the current applied limited by the supply?

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #80 on: 2011-11-03, 13:42:46 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Grumpy on 2011-11-03, 13:30:27 How can a wire that small carry 222 amps? (That's 8436 watts.) Isn't the current applied limited by the supply? G: The actual power is delivered for a microsecond or so. It is not continuous power or the wire would explode. You need to consider duty cycle. That's the whole purpose of this exercise. The original intent was to develop a sharp pulse (high amps, low duty cycle) to the wire to attempt to get vibration with an actual very low average power input. The wire can take it because the average power is very low. We are working backwards from the TPU reported vibration . How could this vibration occur with such low power input? So we try to produce vibration using this method and see what else falls out of the exercise. At least that's what I had in mind. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Grumpy	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #81 on: 2011-11-03, 13:48:18 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	The current in the wire does not flow instantly. It has to soak into the wire to gradually get the electrons moving. What is going on "outside the wire"?

Grumpy	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #82 on: 2011-11-03, 14:23:06 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	"DIFFUSION OF CURRENT INTO CONDUCTORS" J.Edwards and T.K Saha Currents are established on the surface of conductors by the propagation of electromagnetic waves in the insulating material between them. If the load is less than the characteristic impedance of the insulating material of the line, multiple reflections and retransmissions eventually build up the line current to that required by the load. The currents are initially established on the surface of the conductors before diffusing relatively slowly into the interior and gives rise to the skin effect. The diffusion velocity depends the conductivity, permeability, thickness of the conductor, and the frequency of the excitation, and such effects of the diffusion process are difficult to conceptually appreciate. Fortunately, the diffusion of heat into solids is very similar, and will be used as an analogy to aid understanding. This diffusion is the means whereby current moves into conductors and flux into of magnetic cores. (see attached) I posit that our small wire can carry 222 amps because very little of this current is in the conductor itself. How can the rest of this current be outside the conductor? ------------------------ Diffusion of Current into conductors_080_Edwards_AUPEC01paper.pdf (69.13 kB - downloaded 340 times.)

giantkiller	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #83 on: 2011-11-03, 16:09:41 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1593 Frequency equals matter...	Latency in absorbtion equates to high resistance of permiability level. A higher speed energy skips across the surface. What is the energy called that exhibits between the skipping and absorption and how can this interaction be used? At a slower level using the established magnetic waves this looks similar to Don Smith's AC charging pump in reverse of the direction of DC of the supply line. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #84 on: 2011-11-03, 17:57:55 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	I found a whole bunch of heavy gauge toroid's in this PC psu, there was a toroidal inductor and a cmc, but the wire gauge is very thick, maybe twice the thickness i have used up until now, anyway i put 10 turns on the secondary, not sure how many primary turns are already there, it's not possible to count them. Anyway end result was not good, my thyristor was latching on at quiet a low variac voltage, sometimes if i wind up the variac very slowly i could get all the way up. So i am still looking at this time for a suitable cmc, still one more pc psu yet, this maybe a lower power one hopefully Here's a scope shot of the primary and secondary waves when i managed to wind the psu right up ------------------------ Replication of ION's bifilar biflind.JPG (58.06 kB, 538x491 - viewed 681 times.)

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #85 on: 2011-11-03, 18:31:27 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	You can see my setup in the pictures below and some of the toroid's i have built and test (front row) and others i have found in the 2 psu's, you can see the chunky one soldered to my pcb that i have just tested. The coils in the front row have been tested from right to left, so the last one that gave the weird waveform was the black one front left, this showed the most current so far. Going to test one of these cmc's i got out of the second psu, not sure how many turns it has, but i would say less than a 100. ------------------------ Replication of ION's bifilar StillCap0020.jpg (159.52 kB, 1280x1024 - viewed 623 times.) Replication of ION's bifilar StillCap0022.jpg (150.94 kB, 1280x1024 - viewed 591 times.)

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #86 on: 2011-11-03, 20:11:48 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	OK just tried one of the smaller gauge cmc's i pulled from the second psu, there 2 lots of 28turns, so i put these in series and wound 10 turns with a 5 turn tap for the secondary. On power up it would run but the thyristor would latch at a relatively low voltage, but something very strange happening which i am quiet excited about, i am scoping primary and secondary, when it latches up sometimes when i switch off the power supply i get 4 or 5 bursts on the secondary of about +/- 10V pulses, but nothing on the primary, how weird is that, i say i am excited about this, i guess it could be noise causing spurious data in the dso, but i have seen these +/- pulses before and they were a lot harder to get to appear and then not in an orderly fashion I have stopped testing for the night, i don't want to disturb anything until i bring my camera home so i can film the pulses to see what everyone thinks, i will also bring my non PC based scope home to confirm this see's them. So how can i have high current pulses, when the primary shows no drive and remember this happens when i power off the latch up condition by switching the psu off. EDIT thinking about this, it cannot be noise on the dso because i am only seeing the spikes on the Chan that's connected to the secondary, i am getting really excited about this. During latch up i monitor the voltage coming out my psu and it only reads about 10-18V this is being pulled down by the latched on thyristor, i think it was 10-18V maybe it was lower, i will check this again when i get my camera

BEP	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #87 on: 2011-11-03, 20:23:26 »
Group: Guest	If your pulse duration is in the single millisecond range they may be relaxation. (As the term is used in SIGINT and ELINT.) These are normally the same polarity as the driving pulse. Your notes about the display of the polarity changing as you move your scope probe away from the wire are also an indication of this. 'Relaxation' pulses are NOT street electronics terminology.

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #88 on: 2011-11-03, 20:45:23 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	To get these pulses before, i made use of the random re-triggering of my 2 delayed fet stages, this was hit and miss and mostly blew the fets. i then realized it was the mixing of harmonics that creates them, but what harmonics, so this led me to mix 2 whitenoise channels in a bifilar which was wound round an iron loop, this iron loop would once in a while show the same pulses i am seeing, these pulses were also high current in nature, but i was still non the wiser on how to create them with regard to the harmonics required, when done correctly i suspect a very little drive is required to create them, and i am wondering if this is what i am seeing here.

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #89 on: 2011-11-03, 20:57:10 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	G: Whether the current is on the outside surface (skin) or has penetrated deep into the conductor, the heating effect is in line with the average power sent into the wire. If the current somehow flowed outside of the wire, the wire itself would not heat up. (Moray) 222 amps into a 0.17 ohm load for one microsecond is not a lot of average power. We need to look at pulse amplitude, pulse duration and repetition rate to determine average power. Peterae: Perhaps some stored energy in your inductor is discharged with a few final pulses as the SCR unlatches at some low holding current value. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #90 on: 2011-11-03, 21:02:53 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Indeed ION infact the switch i switch off is feeding the bridge from my 2 back to back mains transformers, so when i switch off under latch up there will be a small amount of arcing and harmonics injected as the system winds down, more interestingly is that i do not see anything notable on the primary, so then how am i getting 10V positive/negative pulses on the secondary. I should be containing myself because there maybe a simple answer, i will do more tomorrow to try and work out what's going on but first i want to film this and see what you all think.

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #91 on: 2011-11-03, 21:17:56 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	First problem that comes to mind is that the secondary is not isolated from the primary because both scope probes are connected to both and the neg of each scope probe will be connected together, but connecting 1 wire of the secondary to 1 wire of the primary should not cause pulses on the secondary right because the second pin of the secondary is showing the potential, so all i am doing is referencing the secondary and bifilar to the 0v on the primary. So one test i need to establish tomorrow is to remove the primary scope probe and see if i still see the pulses.

Grumpy	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #92 on: 2011-11-03, 22:04:20 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: ION on 2011-11-03, 20:57:10 G: Whether the current is on the outside surface (skin) or has penetrated deep into the conductor, the heating effect is in line with the average power sent into the wire. If the current somehow flowed outside of the wire, the wire itself would not heat up. (Moray) A disuptive dicharge coil makes the spark gap hot enough to melt tungsten. There is not enough current in the disruptive coil supply to do this, regardless of the average or peak power, so what causes this extreme heating effect? Quote from: ION on 2011-11-03, 20:57:10 222 amps into a 0.17 ohm load for one microsecond is not a lot of average power. We need to look at pulse amplitude, pulse duration and repetition rate to determine average power. Pavg = Ppk x pulse width x pulse repetition frequency What is the average power for this example?

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #93 on: 2011-11-03, 22:18:03 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	G The pulse averaged i would say 5uS or less width and although i didn't measure the operating repetitive frequency i can be pretty sure it was between 350-400Hz So at 350 times a second we would have 222A for 0.00175 of a second. V=IxR = 37.962 0.00175 / 8427.56Watts = 0.246 Joules or is it P=IxV = 8427.56Watts x 0.00175 = 14.748 Joules

Grumpy	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #94 on: 2011-11-03, 22:55:27 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	I have: Pavg = 8430 watts x .000005 s x 400 Hz = 16.87 watts Joules = watts x s 8430 watts x .000005 s = .04215 J Well, even if grossly "off", it is not a lot of power, so like Ion asked, why are the wires moving so? Where is all of that momentum coming from?

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #95 on: 2011-11-04, 08:24:28 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	There's a calculator here http://www.vishay.com/resistors/pulse-energy-calculator/ So each pulse has 0.0421 J of energy if the pulse was 5uS wide If we were running at 350Hz then we would have 350 x 0.0421 = 14.7483 Watts

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #96 on: 2011-11-04, 09:19:10 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Here's a thought, i don't know what i am on about so please put me right. How can i see a pulse on my secondary and not on my primary. to measure a pulse across my primary i need a potential difference at each end of the winding, what if i don't have this, maybe a sharp pulse that does not allow me to have a potential across my primary, can i have a transfer of energy to the secondary without a potential showing across each end of the primary, how about a longitudinal wave, would my scope show this. Is it possible for my high turn primary and low turn secondary to convert a narrow voltage pulse into a wide current pulse. « Last Edit: 2011-11-04, 11:32:20 by Peterae »

ion	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #97 on: 2011-11-04, 12:49:44 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Peterae on 2011-11-04, 09:19:10 Here's a thought, i don't know what i am on about so please put me right. How can i see a pulse on my secondary and not on my primary. to measure a pulse across my primary i need a potential difference at each end of the winding, what if i don't have this, maybe a sharp pulse that does not allow me to have a potential across my primary, can i have a transfer of energy to the secondary without a potential showing across each end of the primary, how about a longitudinal wave, would my scope show this. Is it possible for my high turn primary and low turn secondary to convert a narrow voltage pulse into a wide current pulse. In normal transformer mode, a change in current dI dT in the primary produces a current in the secondary. In this mode, the pulse width should be the same as the primary and the pulses should align timewise. In your case with a stepdown transformer, the voltage on the secondary is reduced but current is increased. This is usually referred to as "forward mode" If a transformer were used in "flyback mode", with energy stored in the transformer then released, you can expect a pulse in the secondary whose width is dependent on the load impedance. These pulses are not aligned timewise, as it is a two step process:energy storage, energy release. hope this helps --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #98 on: 2011-11-04, 13:32:01 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Yep i understand both of those principles but they both require a potential between both ends of the primary. Here's something that i can link to this, a month or so ago i did a test using a small audio matching transformer, it was something like 1.2K primary and 1.2Ohm secondary. I was driving the primary using a sinewave gen, the secondary was loaded with a low ohm resistor, i was sweeping up and down and monitoring the current and voltage phases, when i was using a really low ohm resistor cannot remember now if it was 1 or 10 Ohm, i could see that there was a very small amount of noise riding on the sinewave that was driving the primary, on the secondary this noise was the same amplitude despite the sine going through a large stepdown, i could hardly see the sine waveform on the secondary but because the volts/div were cranked down i could clearly see the noise i had on the primary but much larger because of the v/div, this noise was not stepped down as the driven sine was. I found that interesting, it did occur to me that the noise may be originating in my scope leads or scope, i tried both scopes i have and could get the same result. It's also a bit like the inductance measurements i took at work and could not get an accurate reading because when i scoped the bifilar i had 6kHz pulses. I have been wondering if EM noise is radiant in nature, to stop EM noise on a PCB you put in a ground plane with various connections through to different points, Tesla said would charge a metal plate, and then we can have 1 cm of track with a large spike measured across that 1 cm track, is this not what Tesla did with his large u shaped copper bar with a lit bulb across each end of the copper bar. Sorry for firing all this stuff at you ION, you are a theoretical and practical guy and don't expect you to answer any of the above, just want to get my thoughts out so you can see how i am thinking in the hope it may trigger someone to look at something slightly differently. So next up i need to do some more tests as soon as i can.

Grumpy	Re: Replication of ION's bifilar « Reply #99 on: 2011-11-04, 13:35:48 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: ION on 2011-10-16, 18:14:20 If the free electrons have time to precess and align with a external magnetic field, the effect seems to occur. What if an external magnetic field is applied to align them all the time? You know, electrons have a "cloud" of "virtual particles" around them that communicates with the rest of the universe. These vp's can move back and forth the transfer momentum or they can break free and move away without being pulled back. So, potentially, you can excite electrons into projecting momentum while never exhausting themselves.

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