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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Tesla > Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter
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Author Topic: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter  (Read 151228 times)
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img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #175 on: 2012-11-03, 02:58:41 »
Group: Guest
Well it seems longitudinal waves are the norm, so there should be no doubt he
was using longitudinal waves. But all ground waves are longitudinal.

Current doesn't flow in wavy lines, it travels straight to and from longitudinally.
Therefore all current, displacement current is propagated longitudinally. There
is nothing special about that, it's just the way it is. The military ELF and VLF
transmitters also create standing waves and transmit the energy longitudinally
in the most part I would imagine.

When we look at a scope trace we see voltage over time or current over time,
the wavy lines are not reality, just a graph. The current intensity/magnitude
varies over time but it flows longitudinally, pressure waves. Which is basically the same
way the current flows in a wire, along it, with varying intensity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP0PeO2zpfM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waYXcrHXKsY

Cheers

P.S. Take the example of Single Wire Earth Return. How does the current
flow through the Earth ? Transversely in a wavy path or Longitudinally in a
straight path ? I say it goes straight (longitudinally). There would be
absolutely no reason for it to flow in any other way but straight (longitudinal).

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd168/Toey1/small_swer_schematic.gif
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter


..
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #176 on: 2012-12-15, 06:24:21 »
Group: Guest
This is what I believe Tesla means by "Magnification".

This is the circuit, the input is 12 volts at 300 mA = 3.6 Watts continuous. The primary resistance is less than 1 Ohm maybe 2 Ohms, ( I guess I should remeasure it).  :-[

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd168/Toey1/ArmstrongOscillator111sm.jpg
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter


This is the wave form the Yellow trace is the primary coil negative end to circuit ground. The blue trace is a remote probe about 500 mm away so it's voltage means very little.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd168/Toey1/ArmstrongOscillatorDrain1.jpg
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter


I see 160 volts across the primary, and the current must be substantial as well, can anyone tell me what the peak current would be, the frequency is 909 kHz.

Cheers
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #177 on: 2012-12-15, 11:32:27 »
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Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-11-03, 02:58:41
Well it seems longitudinal waves are the norm, so there should be no doubt he was using longitudinal waves.

None experiment has been able to demonstrate such waves. All experiments involving alleged "longitudinal waves" are perfectly explained either by leakages of ordinary EM waves or by conditions of near field in the quasi-stationary state, following Maxwell's equations.

Quote
But all ground waves are longitudinal.

AM radios prove that your affirmation is false.

Quote
The military ELF and VLF transmitters also create standing waves and transmit the energy longitudinally in the most part I would imagine.

False again. The military ELF and VLF transmitters are designed according to Maxwell's equations and the radiated waves perfectly obey the known laws of electromagnetism. There was no surprise with their propagation, their range nor their penetration.

Although longitudinal waves in vacuum are totally incompatible with the known laws of physics, I'm really ready to admit them in front of an experimental evidence. I have myself led experiments on this subject but the only evidence until now is that they are impossible to observe. So, to consider them as a reality when they are not even a solid hypothesis is a delusion.

« Last Edit: 2012-12-15, 11:58:20 by exnihiloest »
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #178 on: 2012-12-15, 13:22:49 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-12-15, 11:32:27
None experiment has been able to demonstrate such waves. All experiments involving alleged "longitudinal waves" are perfectly explained either by leakages of ordinary EM waves or by conditions of near field in the quasi-stationary state, following Maxwell's equations.

AM radios prove that your affirmation is false.

False again. The military ELF and VLF transmitters are designed according to Maxwell's equations and the radiated waves perfectly obey the known laws of electromagnetism. There was no surprise with their propagation, their range nor their penetration.

Although longitudinal waves in vacuum are totally incompatible with the known laws of physics, I'm really ready to admit them in front of an experimental evidence. I have myself led experiments on this subject but the only evidence until now is that they are impossible to observe. So, to consider them as a reality when they are not even a solid hypothesis is a delusion.



Then what is this guy talking about in the video below ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLAB-d8VnZ8

Are you saying that current flows in transverse wave motion ?

I think we must be talking about different things.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #179 on: 2012-12-15, 13:50:22 »
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Anyway the primary DC resistance is 0.2 Ohms not counting the tuning coil or the capacitor, the tuning coil is also 0.2 ohms.
primary inductance is 30 uH just the primary and up to 45 uH with the tuning coil.

I'm going to try to measure the current in the primary tank and the current through the mosfet.
As well as see where the primary oscillations are limited to on the positive side. I'm not convinced
some of the voltage I see on the yellow trace is not caused by the influence of the secondary directly on the probe wire.

I think I might need to make a small cage to put the coil in so the measurements can be made more accurately.

..
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #180 on: 2012-12-15, 14:07:20 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-12-15, 11:32:27

Quote
The military ELF and VLF transmitters also create standing waves and transmit the energy longitudinally in the most part I would imagine.


False again. The military ELF and VLF transmitters are designed according to Maxwell's equations and the radiated waves perfectly obey the known laws of electromagnetism. There was no surprise with their propagation, their range nor their penetration.

Although longitudinal waves in vacuum are totally incompatible with the known laws of physics, I'm really ready to admit them in front of an experimental evidence. I have myself led experiments on this subject but the only evidence until now is that they are impossible to observe. So, to consider them as a reality when they are not even a solid hypothesis is a delusion.



Does this statement
Quote
The military ELF and VLF transmitters also create standing waves and transmit the energy longitudinally in the most part I would imagine.
Say that I say the radiated waves do not perfectly obey the known laws of electromagnetism ?

..
   
img  BEP
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #181 on: 2012-12-15, 14:33:36 »
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Farmhand,


A wave's definition is not based upon the path taken by the associated current. Being transverse or longitudinal means the disturbance created by the wave is perpendicular (transverse) or along the same path (longitudinal). Current flow and potential density along the wave's path are always longitudinal (simplified).

A scope can only show the longitudinal aspects of either wave - the current flow/potential density. Unfortunately, this means some will think the current is wiggling perpendicular to the current flow path. Don't bother arguing with those folks  :-\
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #182 on: 2012-12-15, 14:46:03 »
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Posts: 805
its too bad they use the word "condensation" to mean compression.   Physicists are all screwed up!    :D

that guy is too intense, he scares the knowledge right into your brain!   ;D
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #183 on: 2012-12-15, 15:29:59 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-12-15, 13:22:49
Then what is this guy talking about in the video below ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLAB-d8VnZ8
...

You mix anything with anything. Reread. You missed "longitudinal waves in vacuum" (meaning also in air, for waves of magnetic or electric origin).
Nobody denies longitudinal waves in matter! Sound is a longitudinal wave.

Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-12-15, 14:07:20
...
 Say that I say the radiated waves do not perfectly obey the known laws of electromagnetism ?
..

They do obey, up to the limits of our knowledge of the parameters determining their medium of propagation, which are not obvious for example when it is question of the Earth's crust.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #184 on: 2012-12-15, 15:41:26 »
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Quote from: EMdevices on 2012-12-15, 14:46:03
...
that guy is too intense, he scares the knowledge right into your brain!   ;D

His method reminds me this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccvKsT7OG8s
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #185 on: 2012-12-15, 16:13:56 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-12-15, 14:33:36
...
A scope can only show the longitudinal aspects of either wave - the current flow/potential density. Unfortunately, this means some will think the current is wiggling perpendicular to the current flow path. Don't bother arguing with those folks  :-\

A current can't be modelized by a longitudinal wave of electrons only, i.e. it's not a first disturbance of the electrons at a end of a conductor, then moving step by step by Coulomb influence up to the other end. This doesn't work.
For instance, if you prevented the possibility for a magnetic field to appear around the conductor, the current couldn't flow. A charge is not a point but an extended thing including its electric field and this field reinforces transversally when it moves, phenomena that is viewed as a magnetic field from a referential at rest. There are always necessary field waves along a conductor for a current variation to propagate, and these waves are transverse.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #186 on: 2012-12-16, 00:02:42 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-12-15, 15:29:59
You mix anything with anything. Reread. You missed "longitudinal waves in vacuum" (meaning also in air, for waves of magnetic or electric origin).
Nobody denies longitudinal waves in matter! Sound is a longitudinal wave.

They do obey, up to the limits of our knowledge of the parameters determining their medium of propagation, which are not obvious for example when it is question of the Earth's crust.



No you mix anything with everything, Who said anything about longitudinal waves in a vacuum ?

And so are the current waves in the ground transverse or longitudinal ?

Is the energy propagated in a transverse wave motion ?

Is the current propagated in a transverse wave motion. ?

I think all current flows in a longitudinal fashion and energy is also propagated in a longitudinal wave motion.

We look at a scope trace and think up and down or side to side but really it is a two dimentional depiction of a helical or spiral motion isn't it ?

I am aware that there is a "transverse" component to some waves. But my point is how does the energy and current actually move in straight lines or in helix or spirals ?

I get annoyed at some of your comments because you seem to be commenting on things I did not say, as if I did say them. And ascribing claims to me I did not make, by inference.

Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-11-03, 03:58:41
Well it seems longitudinal waves are the norm, so there should be no doubt he was using longitudinal waves.

Quote
None experiment has been able to demonstrate such waves. All experiments involving alleged "longitudinal waves" are perfectly explained either by leakages of ordinary EM waves or by conditions of near field in the quasi-stationary state, following Maxwell's equations.


I think that statement you made is off the point and misleading as to what I was saying and talking about in context.
I was referring to longitudinal waves being a normal occurrence and Tesla was using longitudinal waves. And you say
Quote
no experiment has ever demonstrated such waves. All experiments involving alleged "longitudinal waves" are perfectly explained either by leakages of ordinary EM waves or by conditions of near field in the quasi-stationary state, following Maxwell's equations
.

I do not know which experiments you refer to.

So are you saying that in a solid like the Earth or a conductor there is no such thing as a longitudinal wave of current ?

I think you see many experiments on you tube and assume i am trying to defend them or to defend some other persons claims
 of their interpretation of longitudinal waves. I do not. All I want is to get a clearer picture for myself.

To me if the current is flowing straight to and from in varying intensities then it's a longitudinal wave. The displacement of the media is along the axis of propagation.

Anyway the way your post appeared just after I provided some info to show what I think Tesla meant by Magnification reeks of distraction.

So what of the magnification ? If I input 3 Watts continuous from a 12 volt supply at 250 mA to the primary and the primary is showing 40 volts RMS and 5 amps of current,
then I would call that a magnification the magnified power is there to utilize so as to overcome the resistance the output might face.
The output might be only 1 Watt and the process inefficient, but the Magnification of power is still there.

Cheers
   
img  muDped
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #187 on: 2012-12-16, 01:59:29 »

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Posts: 3055
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-12-15, 15:41:26
His method reminds me this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccvKsT7OG8s

It is exceedingly difficult to imagine where such
distorted beliefs originate and penetrate the
minds of men.

It must be pointed out that those beliefs taught
in the video are not unique to segments of Islam;
they are shared by numerous other religions
including Judah-ism and some sects of Christendom.

As always, it is really about power over others and
the ability to control the minds of the people.

Ah, but one day not too far off, we'll see truth and
wonder how we could have been so deceived...


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  muDped
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #188 on: 2012-12-16, 02:07:11 »

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Posts: 3055
Quote from: exnihiloest
A charge is not a point but an extended thing
including its electric field and this field reinforces
transversally when it moves, phenomena that is
viewed as a magnetic field from a referential at rest.
There are always necessary field waves along a
conductor for a current variation to propagate,
and these waves are transverse.

And there you have it!  Those conditions are present
in the ionosphere where enormous currents can flow
producing the aurorae and other phenomena.

Can it be said that lightning is an example of a
longitudinal wave?


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #189 on: 2012-12-16, 10:36:54 »
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You expect me to answer so many questions, just answer this question before I will bother to continue any argument with you. What do you say the patent depicts ? What is it ?


I say it is a depiction of a VLF or ELF transmitter designed to transmit primarily by ground currents and that it would be capable of transmitting to the other side of the planet.
That's not a claim that is my opinion.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=m7R9AAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

What do you say it is Ex. ?

..
« Last Edit: 2012-12-16, 19:20:56 by Farmhand »
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #190 on: 2012-12-16, 16:17:15 »
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Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-12-16, 10:36:54
Quote from: exnihiloest
Of course I do not deny this, in fact I was very reluctant to even bring into this conversation anything about "longitudinal".
I don't think it is necessary info for the understanding of the basic principal of operation.

Not only it is necessary, but there is no other way to explain the observations.
If you try to explain and modelize a current with longitudinal waves only, you will fail, or you will be a new Maxwell if you succeed but I ask for the math.   :)

Quote

Nor is any "free energy" claim or aspect needed to understand the basic principal.

The reason I began posting in this thread was to try to understand why people think that these energy transmission devices are free energy devices, I don't think they are.

I think the device depicted in the last Tesla transmission  patent is a VLF or ELF transmitter which transmits primarily by ground currents. Is it, or is it not ? That is the question.

The question was asked by Maxwell a century ago. Ground currents are not a sufficient explanation but an epiphenomenon. If people pretend that observations don't fit  Maxwell's electromagnetism, could they or you specifically clarify which?

Quote
Put all the other stuff aside. What is it and what can it do in layman's terms ?
I say it is a depiction of a VLF or ELF transmitter designed to transmit primarily by ground currents and that it would be capable of transmitting to the other side of the planet.
That's not a claim that is my opinion.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=m7R9AAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

What do you say it is Ex. ?

..

You can say it is ground currents or it is an operation of the holy spirit, it doesn't change anything: "ground current" remain void words until you qualify operationnally your ground current, how it flows and how it can be at the origin of an effect from one circuit upon the other, with a quantified analysis to support this affirmation. Then you should explain why you need this theory of ground currents to explain a particular case when a more general theory perfectly fits the Tesla's observations and much more: that one from Maxwell. Resonant circuits can couple at a distance when they share, at least partly, a field and this field is the result of a current of charges going back and forth. In far space we could replace the ground by an indentical capacitance at each end of the coils and get the same effect with no ground (even in the lab it's feasible).

Tesla's "Magnifying" Transmitter without ground:    :)
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #191 on: 2012-12-16, 19:22:00 »
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You expect me to answer so many questions, just answer this question before I will bother to continue any argument with you. What do you say the patent depicts ? What is it ?


I say it is a depiction of a VLF or ELF transmitter designed to transmit primarily by ground currents and that it would be capable of transmitting to the other side of the planet.
That's not a claim that is my opinion.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=m7R9AAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

What do you say it is Ex. ?
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #192 on: 2012-12-17, 13:15:24 »
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Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-12-16, 19:22:00
...
I say it is a depiction of a VLF or ELF transmitter designed to transmit primarily by ground currents and that it would be capable of transmitting to the other side of the planet.
That's not a claim that is my opinion.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=m7R9AAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

What do you say it is Ex. ?

I say that the patent presents only a resonant LC circuit able to couple with another one in order to transfer energy from one to another. I say that this works, according to Maxwell's equation, in particular thanks to displacement currents as between two capacitor plates. I say that this works only at a distance on the order of the wave length. I say that to obtain a long wave length for transfering power over long distances, while maintaining a sufficient coupling, the size of the tower must be proportional and so, should be totally incompatible with wave lengths able to circle or cross the earth, not even able to reach tens of Km. I say that "ground currents" are not an explanation, I say that there is neither a single rational argument nor an experimental fact that supports the so-called "ground currents" which are only a charge distribution creating an image, see the picture below. I say that an opinion is useless when electromagnetism and science in general is concerned, only facts and logic matter.
That's academic science (the only one that works until now).

I also say that spreading opinions supporting that something "would be capable of transmitting to the other side of the planet" while they are sustained by nothing real, has the same effect upon a reader as spreading lies: an effect of disinformation, and consequently should be avoided.
That's my opinion.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_image_charges: "ground currents" as an image of charges of the upper capacity. That's why the ground can be eliminated with the schematic of my previous reply. Note that this static case can modelize as well a quasi stationary distribution like that of the Tesla tower.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #193 on: 2012-12-17, 17:46:19 »
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Fair enough, I disagree. End of story for me. No point to any argument. I think I have presented my perspective well enough.
Now so have you or you can continue, it's up to you.

I stick to it being a VLF or ELF transmitter designed to use primarily ground currents, and capable of transmitting a disturbance to the other side of the planet.

Cheers
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #194 on: 2012-12-17, 18:08:09 »

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Gary Peterson has done a great deal of experimental work with Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter.

His web site is here:
http://www.teslaradio.com/pages/wireless.htm

Interesting takes on the magnifier here, with nine different mechanisms proposed:
http://www.teslaradio.com/pages/wireless_102.htm

I think Ex. is correct in explaining the electromagnetic mode of operation of Tesla's Magnifier.  However, I think Ex. overlooks the other mode of operation which Tesla spoke of many times in his notes and onterviews.   Don't hold that against him, as evidence of this "other mode" is very sparse.

I have come to suspect that Tesla discovered a different means of producing electron flow, by using the ponderomotive force produced by HV pulses to the raised terminal of his transmitter.  This was the true current that he spoke of and why he always said that his transmitter utilized currents of conduction rather than electromagnetic waves.
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #195 on: 2012-12-17, 18:58:20 »

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Tesla's statements are interesting.   I don't recall anyone achieving the aurora effect around their magnifier replications.  In any even, Tesla understood electromagnetic waves, and states his device uses condcution currents.


My experiments . . . in Colorado showed that at a height of 1 mile it is plenty enough rarefied to break down under the stress and conduct the current to the distant points. . . . My patent says that I break down the atmosphere "at or near" the terminal. If my conducting atmosphere is 2 or 3 miles above the plant, I consider this very near the terminal as compared to the distance of my receiving terminal, which may be across the Pacific. . . . I have constructed and patented a form of apparatus which, with a moderate elevation of a few hundred feet, can break the air stratum down.  You will then see something like an aurora borealis across the sky, and the energy will go to the distant place. . . . An apparatus which permits displacing a certain quantity of electricity in the terminal—we shall say so many units—will produce an electric potential at a distance of 5 miles, and the fall of electric potential per centimeter will be equal to the quantity of electricity divided by the square of the distance. . . . Now, I have satisfied myself that I can construct plants in which I may produce, per kilometer of the atmosphere, electric differences of potential of something like 50,000 or 60,000 volts, and at 50,000 or 60,000 volts that atmosphere must break down and will become conductive. . . .

The earth is 4,000 miles radius.  Around this conducting earth is an atmosphere.  The earth is a conductor; the atmosphere above is a conductor, only there is a little stratum between the conducting atmosphere and the conducting earth which is insulating. . . . Now, you realize right away that if you set up differences of potential at one point, say, you will create in the media corresponding fluctuations of potential. But, since the distance from the earth's surface to the conducting atmosphere is minute, as compared with the distance of the receiver at 4,000 miles, say, you can readily see that the energy cannot travel along this curve and get there, but will be immediately transformed into conduction currents, and these currents will travel like currents over a wire with a return.  The energy will be recovered in the circuit, not by a beam that passes along this curve and is reflected and absorbed, . . . but it will travel by conduction and will be recovered in this way.
   
img  muDped
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #196 on: 2012-12-17, 20:08:56 »

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Nikola Tesla was a genius there is no doubt.

He was right about many things that he
described in his various writings and lectures.

But he was also wrong about certain things
too.  As a man desperately in need of financial
support he did frequently engage in hyperbole
in order to promote his "discoveries."

Much of what Tesla said/wrote must be taken
with a grain of salt.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #197 on: 2012-12-17, 22:24:20 »
Group: Guest
If the ground currents were 100% EM or not makes no difference to me, the point i make is the ground currents are there.

If the entire system encompasses the entire planet's solid mass then there is no radiation in a ground wave even if it is an EM wave.

This is the major point I contend, the system is not designed to radiate primarily from the air capacitance/terminal.
It was designed to send out waves more through the ground. If those waves are EM or longitudinal makes no difference to me.

All I say is it is not much different to a modern day VLF or ELF transmitter, they work.

..
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #198 on: 2012-12-17, 22:57:37 »

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Tesla's does consitently states that his system (the magnifier) passes currents of conduction through the ground, and that transmitter and receiver make a complete circuit.

I have not found any statements elluding to these currents being created by electromagnetic means.  While discussing the deep ground plate for his magnifier, he states that it has to be very deep the grip the earth and shake it.  What does he mean by that?
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #199 on: 2012-12-18, 03:34:39 »

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Many think that the Magnifier is spraying energy all around and that it must be wasted, but Tesla specifically sought to avoid this, and I believe he achieved this in that his system requires both sides, transmitter and receiver, for the conduction currents to manifest.  How genius!  No work is done without both sides, and the current would adjust with the load.  Amazing! 

Of course, it's still rather impractical.  I mean, why transmit electricity when you can just generate it?  You could sell or lease the receivers, but once someone knows how to make one, then everyone has one.

This is not to say that any of this energy is "free".  Free if you steal it, but not free to generate at the transmitter.
   
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