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Author Topic: Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both...  (Read 6446 times)
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img  the_big_m_in_ok
Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both... « on: 2011-05-09, 23:59:21 »
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...directions on the same wire(?):

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9778.0  ,  Mechanic Forum  ,  initial post
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10768.0  ,  follow-on thread

Considering the first thread at the top of the listed sites, I took two DC Radio Shack computer fan motors and wired them in series with 2ea. Radio Shack 6VDC battery holders just like the drawing.  Then I shorted the wires together in the middle, electrically, by connecting the positive pole on the right hand battery to a point, electrically, between the two motors, and nothing happened.

Both motors continued to run without change in rotational speed.  Same thing with---or without---the shorting wire.  Would that be proof?

--Lee


« Last Edit: 2011-05-16, 21:19:00 by the_big_m_in_ok »
   
img  the_big_m_in_ok
Re: Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both... « Reply #1 on: 2011-05-17, 17:54:55 »
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Okay, I have another test to describe on the subject of this thread:

http:/www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9778.0  ,  Reply #9, pg. 1

What I did was use the parts I had on hand.  Thusly, in qwerty ascii:

      +-----light------point------  +  motor -  -------------------------------------+  
      |       bulb          'D'                                                                             |
      |                                                                                                        |
      +------point----- + battery -  ----point------  + battery -  ----point------+
                 'A'               #1              'B'                 #2               'C'

Now, for test results:

1) Shorting points 'A' & 'D' causes the bulb to go out;  the motor runs a lot faster, like it has 24V on it.
2) Shorting points 'C' & 'D' causes the motor to stop, since it's shorted.  Bulbs have full voltage.
3) Shorting points 'B' & 'D' causes the bulb to dim partially and the motor to speed up partially as well.  The other shorted experiments were repeated with the identical results, as shown in #1 and #2.


Intrepretations:
1) The bulb has a lot more resistance to make it draw current, so the shorting lead is the easiest line of least resistance.
2) The short has no resistance; the motor has more than that, so the current bypasses the motor as the path of least resistance.
3) The motor and battery are drawing their rated wattage, but they're both different.  The battery holder sets present two slightly different voltages in series to the whole circuit.


I would say that if the voltages were the same throughout, the bulb and motor wouldn't change.  Since they do, the higher voltage or lower resistive load take precedent in the circuit because:
DC voltage can't really flow in two directions on the same wire.   Only exactly the same voltage and wattage load will cause no change when the circuit is shorted in experiment #3.

This will conclude changes to this thread unless a Member has a comment or recommendation?

--Lee
« Last Edit: 2011-06-11, 22:07:39 by the_big_m_in_ok »
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both... « Reply #2 on: 2011-05-18, 07:42:35 »
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Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on 2011-05-09, 23:59:21
...
Then I shorted the wires together in the middle, electrically, by connecting the positive pole on the right hand battery to a point, electrically, between the two motors, and nothing happened.

Both motors continued to run without change in rotational speed.  Same thing with---or without---the shorting wire.  Would that be proof?

--Lee

For reasons of symmetry of the circuit, the two points that you shorted are at the same potential. Two points at same potential can be connected or not connected, it doesn't change anything because current can't flow.

The reason for a current to flow in a wire is the Coulomb force acting onto the electrons. The Coulomb force is due to an electric field inside and along the wire. The electric field is due to a potential difference. As there is only one potential difference along a wire, the electrons flow always in the same direction. Here, this potential difference is zero.
   
img  the_big_m_in_ok
Re: Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both... « Reply #3 on: 2011-05-18, 17:59:46 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2011-05-18, 07:42:35
For reasons of symmetry of the circuit, the two points that you shorted are at the same potential. Two points at same potential can be connected or not connected, it doesn't change anything because current can't flow.
Okay, I see now.
For the record, I did finish the experiments shorting the the other points and the results were pretty much as you predicted:  Wires with the same voltage potential have no current flow when shorted.  Which is logical.

As a 'closure' gesture (so to speak), I wired another circuit the same way as Reply #9 in the first thread address on the list above.  That is, with one light bulb experiencing 24V from 2 battery sets in series.  (Twice as bright.)  The motor is wired the same.  Shorting the same point also gave little effect.
But it did have some effect, to wit:  In the 12V circuit, the motor ran noticably faster and the bulb was a little dimmer.  In the 24V circuit, the motor ran a bit faster, the bulb was a bit dimmer(again).

I might chalk this effect up to merely slightly different voltages between battery sets?  Although the motor ran differently in both cases.

--Lee
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both... « Reply #4 on: 2011-05-19, 10:16:46 »
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Effects appear when the circuit is not perfectly symmetrical on each side of the line connecting the 2 points.
We must reckon that the motor draws a current depending on the angular position at each instant of time (and on speed), so AC voltage can appears. The motor impedance can't be well balanced by the light bulb. Not even DC but also AC is involved. With a big capacitor in parallel with the motor (>10.000µF), I guess that the effect from AC should decrease.
   
img  the_big_m_in_ok
Re: Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both... « Reply #5 on: 2011-05-19, 21:34:03 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2011-05-19, 10:16:46
Effects appear when the circuit is not perfectly symmetrical on each side of the line connecting the 2 points.
Right.  That's reasonable.
Quote
We must reckon that the motor draws a current depending on the angular position at each instant of time (and on speed), so AC voltage can appears.
Well, I couldn't get a transformer to step up voltage using even pulsating DC from a motor to drive it.  I do agree that the likes of pulsating DC is possible from a DC motor.
Quote
The motor impedance can't be well balanced by the light bulb. Not even DC but also AC is involved. With a big capacitor in parallel with the motor (>10.000µF), I guess that the effect from AC should decrease.
I do have capacitors with which to test this, but I'm not sure of the theoretical results that I can expect.  I have little experimental experience so far.  And, unfortunately, I don't have a VOM to use right now, either.

--Lee
« Last Edit: 2011-05-20, 00:32:52 by the_big_m_in_ok »
   
img  rizla
Re: Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both... « Reply #6 on: 2011-05-21, 11:09:51 »
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That circuit is a dual rail supply as identifiyed by others +1.5 0 -1.5, or if the wire between batteries is removed it becomes +3v across both batteries in series. A cheap multimeter goes for the price of a few pints and can be picked up from your local car spares shop, well worth the dosh and should help u out a lot.
Try adding a reversed biased diode from the motor to the battery, this should reduce ac noise from the motor.
As for electrons flowing in both directions i don`t think they are.

Good luck with your experiments  O0
   
img  the_big_m_in_ok
Re: Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both... « Reply #7 on: 2011-05-23, 18:58:27 »
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Quote from: rizla on 2011-05-21, 11:09:51
That circuit is a dual rail supply as identifiyed by others +1.5 0 -1.5, or if the wire between batteries is removed it becomes +3v across both batteries in series.
Thank you, rizla.  You're right:  It's a 2-rail supply circuit and taking the shorting wire out makes it a merely series circuit.
Quote
A cheap multimeter goes for the price of a few pints and can be picked up from your local car spares shop, well worth the dosh and should help u out a lot.
Yeah, I get paid in a couple of weeks, so I'll have to try and budget ~$25.00 American, for (probably) a cheapo analog meter from Radio Shack.
Quote
Try adding a reversed biased diode from the motor to the battery, this should reduce ac noise from the motor.
Well, that was what I was actually trying to do.  Get enough motor pulsating AC to step up voltage in a transformer.  It didn't work, for some reason.  Not a strong enough voltage swing in the pulsations?  I don't have an oscilloscope.
Quote

As for electrons flowing in both directions I don`t think they are.
Uh Huh.  I was following someone else's assertions as an experimental line of action.  The theory is *disproved*.  Voltage equalized (ideally) on a 2-rail circuit means no current flow when shorted.
Quote
Good luck with your experiments  O0
Right.  Thanks.  I'll start another when I have more time.

See ya.

--Lee

Reedit, 16 Jun '11:  Corrected spelling.
Reedit,   7 Jul '11:   Added the signoff statement to the end of this post to notify all viewers that this thread is dormant in activity from me, by the fact that I believe electricity flows in one direction.
To wit:  Grid intertied inverters force extra power left over from a renewable energy generator by deliberately raising the voltage to the side of the circuit it experiences, as phased locked with the grid mains power.  Even if it's A/C, this works because current flows from higher voltage to lower voltage; one way.  The theory is disproven.
Because I make no further postings to this thread, the Members can ask further questions, make comments and post suggestions as they wish.  Otherwise, it's "kaput".

« Last Edit: 2011-07-07, 21:53:12 by the_big_m_in_ok »
   
img  the_big_m_in_ok
Re: Experimental answer to OU.com's thread on electricity flowing in both... « Reply #8 on: 2013-07-15, 21:59:17 »
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directions.

Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on 2011-05-23, 18:58:27
Thank you, rizla.  You're right:  It's a 2-rail supply circuit and taking the shorting wire out makes it a merely series circuit.
      Alright, I came back to this Bench after and absence and finally looked at this thread more carefully.   Then I thought about this thread elsewhere:

http://www.overunity.com/9778/can-electrons-flow-in-opposite-directions-on-the-same-wire-see-schematic/#.UeRbmEqArDc

Lastly, I looked analytically at the drawings.   Here's one from the thread:   "ledbattery.JPG"
NOTE:
       If I do a 'Print Preview'; on the baseline screen view, the drawing cited above would appear on Pg. 4 of the Print Screen list.   However, the phrased argument in quotation marks immediately above won't load and run as is.  You'll have to invoke the thread to see the drawing.

Now, then:  My reasoning...
       (You might want to print off a copy on your computer system's printer and refer to it as I describe my theory.)

The circuit has a motor running from the power of one battery; the 'LED' is powered by two(2) batteries.   Okay, the components have unequal voltages being applied to them but with the shorting wire at points 'A' & 'B' in place.
NOW:
       Take out the wire at 'AB' and the thread author implies(?) to say that the LED and motor will run at the voltage rating of three batteries.   As is, the motor runs with the potential of less electricity on one battery.   And, the LED runs on two batteries.   The thread author maintains the power demonstrated in the circuit would be equal on both components if if no power flowed bidirectionally on the wire.
Okay, I see that now.
       Take away the wire and that's actually so.   It becomes a series circuit all the way around.   But, if the power is lessened by an unequal amount of voltage as is theoretically possible(equal voltage on both sides of the wire means both sides are equally powered in voltage and will obviously reflect this fact).  
THE BIG THING IN MY MIND IS:
       Is the electricity actually flowing?   Is the mere presence of opposing magnetic fields enough to appear like power is flowing in both directions?   This is the first time I've considered the theoretrical

Okay, now to test with Radio Shack parts:
       I already have a small, 12VDC computer chassis ventilation fan now to use.   I have 8 rechargeable NiMH batteries and an 8-place battery holder to apply power to a circuit.
I need LEDs, enough to equal 12VDC and possibly, say, 25K-30K resistance on their positive sides to protect them against any potential voltage spikes.   Wire, I have.
       Wire up the circuit the way the drawing shows and remove or add the shorting wire at 'AB'.   Is that reasonable to the Members at proof of theory?
I get paid on Aug. 3rd.   I'll get the parts then and start experimenting.

Comments?

--Lee
« Last Edit: 2013-07-16, 19:01:32 by the_big_m_in_ok »
   
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