Magnetic Delay Transformer

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Author Topic: Magnetic Delay Transformer (Read 31545 times)

Itsu	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #150 on: 2020-05-18, 19:51:20 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	bump

Smudge	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #151 on: 2020-05-19, 11:27:39 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Itsu, Sorry for not replying sooner. From your latest work I think we can conclude that Graham's 14MHz anomaly was an artifact associated with his quite complex measurement set up. I am trying to figure out what to do next with this thread. Clearly there is a propagation delay from pri to sec that we should be able to use somehow, and keep to frequencies where the core is effective (like 1 to 2MHz as stated in the 3F4 data sheet). Smudge

Itsu	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #152 on: 2020-05-19, 11:46:11 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	No problem Smudge, good to know that you could come to some sort of conclusion (artifact). If i can help any further, please let me know. Regards Itsu

Smudge	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #153 on: 2023-08-10, 16:30:31 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	I am reviving interest in this thread. Although I receive a warning that after such a long time starting a new topic might be best, I want to give newcomers the chance to review the considerable amount of work done by Itsu looking into magnetic delay effects. The reason for this new interest is a new approach where a different set-up might offer new insight. Newcomers might like to review my paper "Analysing Transformers in the Magnetic Domain" https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2609.0;attach=14949 where the magnetic circuit can be analysed in the same manner as an electric circuit. This brings into focus magnetic circuit components. We already have one component know as core Reluctance that has the same form as resistance in an electric circuit that obeys R=V/i, but in the magnetic circuit obeys Reluctance=Mmf/Flux. A loaded secondary coil appears as a magnetic inductance, and that is an energy sink. There is the possibility that we can create magnetic capacitance that will appear as an anomalous energy source, and to do that we need to use magnetic delay. This will all be revealed in the paper I am currently writing. As we already have the name Reluctance for "magnetic resistance", it is helpful to have names for other "reactive" components where their use keeps our mind from wandering into the electrical domain. In my paper I use Minductance, Mapacitance and Meactance for the names of magnetic inductance, capacitance and reactance respectively. Minductance obeys Mmf=-MinductancedFlux/dt (compare to electrical V=-Ldi/dt) while Mapacitance obeys Flux=MapacitancedMmf/dt (compare to electrical i=CdV/dt). Smudge

Paul-R	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #154 on: 2023-08-10, 16:39:40 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: Smudge on 2023-08-10, 16:30:31 I am reviving interest in this thread. Although I receive a warning that after such a long time starting a new topic might be best, I want to give newcomers the chance to review the considerable amount of work done by Itsu looking into magnetic delay effects. I think you are quite right., A new thread loses the data in previous threads.

Allcanadian	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #155 on: 2023-08-10, 18:45:35 »
Hero Member Posts: 2735	Smudge Quote Newcomers might like to review my paper "Analysing Transformers in the Magnetic Domain" It's an interesting subject and I think we have a similar mindset and form of reasoning. I found most consider motor/generator/transformer cores as benign having bulk/average properties which is a mistake in my opinion. I was curious about how fields propagate through materials so I started doing experiments to see how stuff actually works. For example, most suppose an iron core just becomes magnetized ignoring the magnetic domains and electron spins. So I embedded hall effect magnetometer arrays within and around various cores of different geometries to track the magnitude and velocity of the magnetic domains. The rate is not linear as most supposed and as some domains flip they link with the source increasing the rate at which other domains flip(magnetic induction). As well, a standard solenoid coil/core electrical input does not always correspond to the magnetic output as supposed. The rate of electromagnetic and magnetic induction are not always the same. In effect, I found electron spins and magnetic domains must be considered as individual elements within the whole(infinite element analysis). The effects also follow some rules similar to aerodynamics. As load on a windmill increases the amount of energy diverted around the disk increases. Ergo, the more power we want to extract from the medium the less we get as a whole because the energy starts diverting around the load element. In electromagnetic systems we tend to see this as an increase in the magnetic field density specific to an area. Your paper also touches on some interesting questions very few people seems to be considering. For example, if magnetic reluctance can be treated like an electrical resistance then what is the exact mechanism responsible for this effect?. We know electrical resistance relates to an electron scattering effect within the material lattice so could we presume reluctance relates to an electron spin/domain scattering effect?. It seems relevant when we consider that the greater the individual element separation(Solid cores>>>laminates>>> suspended ferrite particles)the lesser the reluctance. On the surface it seems like a reasonable assumption. If effect, resistance and reluctance may not be similar they could be the same phenomena under different conditions. AC --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

Smudge	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #156 on: 2023-08-12, 15:53:35 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Allcanadian on 2023-08-10, 18:45:35 Smudge It's an interesting subject and I think we have a similar mindset and form of reasoning. I found most consider motor/generator/transformer cores as benign having bulk/average properties which is a mistake in my opinion. I was curious about how fields propagate through materials so I started doing experiments to see how stuff actually works. For example, most suppose an iron core just becomes magnetized ignoring the magnetic domains and electron spins. So I embedded hall effect magnetometer arrays within and around various cores of different geometries to track the magnitude and velocity of the magnetic domains. The rate is not linear as most supposed and as some domains flip they link with the source increasing the rate at which other domains flip(magnetic induction). As well, a standard solenoid coil/core electrical input does not always correspond to the magnetic output as supposed. The rate of electromagnetic and magnetic induction are not always the same. In effect, I found electron spins and magnetic domains must be considered as individual elements within the whole(infinite element analysis). The effects also follow some rules similar to aerodynamics. As load on a windmill increases the amount of energy diverted around the disk increases. Ergo, the more power we want to extract from the medium the less we get as a whole because the energy starts diverting around the load element. In electromagnetic systems we tend to see this as an increase in the magnetic field density specific to an area. Your paper also touches on some interesting questions very few people seems to be considering. For example, if magnetic reluctance can be treated like an electrical resistance then what is the exact mechanism responsible for this effect?. We know electrical resistance relates to an electron scattering effect within the material lattice so could we presume reluctance relates to an electron spin/domain scattering effect?. It seems relevant when we consider that the greater the individual element separation(Solid cores>>>laminates>>> suspended ferrite particles)the lesser the reluctance. On the surface it seems like a reasonable assumption. If effect, resistance and reluctance may not be similar they could be the same phenomena under different conditions. AC If you consider a closed magnetic circuit like a ring core (no air gap) it seems to obey the classical B=u₀u_RH where H=N*i/d, d being the mean circumference of the core, N the turns and i the current. If you apply the current you get the field B in the core, and that suggests cause and effect, the B comes directly from i. But u_R involves core magnetization M, and the electron dipoles that flip or rotate to alter M do not respond to the current derived vector H, they respond to B, so there is something more subtle going on. How can current i create B directly without involving H? The answer is via the magnetic vector potential A. If you are interested you can look up the formula for A produced by a current element and then apply it to all the elements of the wire used in the coil, but the important result for a circular wire is an A field of concentric circles within the coil; the A field has maximum magnitude close to the wire and reduces in magnitude as you move closer to the center. This field pattern has vector curl and we get the result that B=curl(A). The A field can penetrate magnetic material, so that B field occurs within the material to immediately affect the electron dipoles there. There is not an inward slow propagation magnetic wave due to dipole or domain wall movement that some authors have assumed. For a coil wound onto a small length of core the magnetization directly under the coil responds in synch with the current, but at points along the core away from the coil there is a delay resulting in a magnetic wave slower than light speed propagating outwards from the coil. I am convinced that magnetic delay line effect can be put to good use. Smudge

forest	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #157 on: 2023-08-12, 19:24:39 »
Sr. Member Posts: 472	Why not using 1:1 transformer to generate output at each moments : one current when magnetic field is risen in magnetic core and second one when this magnetic field collapse. To me it looks like 200% efficient method, right ?

Smudge	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #158 on: 2023-08-13, 16:28:11 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: forest on 2023-08-12, 19:24:39 Why not using 1:1 transformer to generate output at each moments : one current when magnetic field is risen in magnetic core and second one when this magnetic field collapse. To me it looks like 200% efficient method, right ? Wrong, you have a misconception there. Let's assume the magnetic field rises linearly with time, and falls linearly also. That is a triangular wave. On the rising portion the output from the secondary is a constant voltage, same on the falling portion but then of opposite polarity. So the output voltage is a square wave. With a resistive load R on the secondary the rising field voltage V drives current i=V/R and delivers power Vi, same during the falling portion. The current i in the secondary wants to create its own magnetic field in the core but it doesn't. If it did the rising magnetic field would change value but we have already assumed a field waveform that doesn't have a changed value, so how can the secondary current not create any field? The answer is the primary input is forced to have a current in addition to that which is creating the rising field. That additional current directly opposes the secondary current, hence the two combined (square wave secondary current plus additional opposing square wave primary current) do not create any field at all. The primary current is now a triangular waveform (creating the magnetic field) superimposed upon a square waveform (that with the opposing secondary current doesn't create any field). The triangular waveform is the so-called magnetizing current and since the magnetic field changes in synch any energy taken from the source during the rise is given back during the fall. That square waveform primary current means the input power is Vi exactly matching the output power during the field rise and fall (we have assumed no losses here). There is no OU. For sinusoidal AC input and output the two primary currents components are both sine waves but at 90 degree phase to each other. For other than a 1:1 transformer it is the ampere-turns mmf of primary and secondary load currents that oppose each other. On OU forums there is much talk of Lenz's law relating to the magnetic field created by the secondary current, people don't seem to realize that the secondary current does not create field so Lenz's law does not apply. If a transformer is to be OU what we should be searching for is a means to alter that mmf cancellation that the classical transformer imposes. Then input power will not match output power and we would have either an OU or a UU transformer. That could come about when primary coils and secondary coils are not wound on the same portion of the core and there is some intermediate artifact. That is what I am searching for. Smudge

Allcanadian	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #159 on: 2023-08-13, 17:44:16 »
Hero Member Posts: 2735	Smudge I disagree on several levels... Quote This field pattern has vector curl and we get the result that B=curl(A). The A field can penetrate magnetic material, so that B field occurs within the material to immediately affect the electron dipoles there. I understand what your saying and the terminology but disagree with the context. Your description sounds strange to me because it treats a description/notation like A or H as a real entity when it's not. There is no "A field" and the "curl(A)" simply describes how a real magnetic field polarity seems to shift around objects. I get it but found the terms and equations unworkable. I think it's problematic because it tends to generalize and lump many different details/effects happening on different levels together. Quote There is not an inward slow propagation magnetic wave due to dipole or domain wall movement that some authors have assumed. For a coil wound onto a small length of core the magnetization directly under the coil responds in synch with the current, but at points along the core away from the coil there is a delay resulting in a magnetic wave slower than light speed propagating outwards from the coil. I am convinced that magnetic delay line effect can be put to good use. It's problematic because intuitively we should know the magnetization under or around a coil cannot be in sync with the electron current. This would violate cause and effect therefore we should assume it's a low resolution/timing issue. Many different things on our DSO seem simultaneous, then we change the time period and see it's not even close to being simultaneous. We could assume this basic concept has universal application. For example, how would one accurately measure the domain magnetization in a specific region of an iron core directly under a coil responding to an electron current?. They cannot, because 1)the sensor would distort the field, 2)the sensor sense time/resolution would be inadequate and 3)the sensor cannot tell the difference between the changing electron current magnetic field and the changing electron spins of the material producing a second magnetic field aligning to the first. This relates to the last part of your post. Quote but at points along the core away from the coil there is a delay resulting in a magnetic wave slower than light speed propagating outwards from the coil. I am convinced that magnetic delay line effect can be put to good use. We could ask, how does the far end of a long solenoid core become magnetized when it's outside the influence of the coil?. The answer is that there are two kinds of induction occurring. Electromagnetic induction relating to an electric field causing an electric current producing a magnetic field at the coil. Also magnetic induction ie. induced magnetism, where the electron spin orientation in the iron producing a magnetic field causes other nearby electron spins in the same iron to align with it. Induced magnetism should be sequential, where one electron spin/domain induces the next and so on leading to a delay. AC ------------------------ Magnetic Delay Transformer induced magnetism.jpg (57.27 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 527 times.) --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

Smudge	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #160 on: 2023-08-14, 16:07:57 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Allcanadian on 2023-08-13, 17:44:16 Smudge I disagree on several levels... I understand what your saying and the terminology but disagree with the context. Your description sounds strange to me because it treats a description/notation like A or H as a real entity when it's not. There is no "A field" and the "curl(A)" simply describes how a real magnetic field polarity seems to shift around objects. I get it but found the terms and equations unworkable. I think it's problematic because it tends to generalize and lump many different details/effects happening on different levels together. Strange that you should say there is no A field when every book I have read on EM mentions it, and there is a strong move towards the A field being more fundamental then the B field. Your statement that "curl(A)" simply describes how a real magnetic field polarity seems to shift around objects is bizarre and naive. It is a pity that the name Curl implies bent file line because there are curl fields that are not bent. A better description of the Curl function is "the manner in which a vector field changes value at right angles to itself" (in rectangular co-ordinates the Curl function contains only terms such as dA_x/dy and dA_x/dz which is exactly that). Quote It's problematic because intuitively we should know the magnetization under or around a coil cannot be in sync with the electron current. This would violate cause and effect therefore we should assume it's a low resolution/timing issue. Many different things on our DSO seem simultaneous, then we change the time period and see it's not even close to being simultaneous. We could assume this basic concept has universal application. I was assuming that propagation at velocity c incurred negligible time delay compared to the magnetism wave velocity through the material. And the B field from the current in the wire travels radially inward to the centre of the core at that speed, there is no magnetization wave involved in that. Hence it is reasonable to take that as a starting point for (a) the dipole flips in the material under the coil then (b) the progressive slow wave of dipole flips along the core. Quote For example, how would one accurately measure the domain magnetization in a specific region of an iron core directly under a coil responding to an electron current?. They cannot, because 1)the sensor would distort the field, 2)the sensor sense time/resolution would be inadequate and 3)the sensor cannot tell the difference between the changing electron current magnetic field and the changing electron spins of the material producing a second magnetic field aligning to the first. I was not suggesting we should attempt to do that measurement. Quote This relates to the last part of your post. We could ask, how does the far end of a long solenoid core become magnetized when it's outside the influence of the coil?. The answer is that there are two kinds of induction occurring. Electromagnetic induction relating to an electric field causing an electric current producing a magnetic field at the coil. Also magnetic induction ie. induced magnetism, where the electron spin orientation in the iron producing a magnetic field causes other nearby electron spins in the same iron to align with it. Induced magnetism should be sequential, where one electron spin/domain induces the next and so on leading to a delay. Exactly, that delay IS measurable, and we have the ability to create more delay of our choosing. In electrical delay lines we already use resonant lengths to create wanted impedances, perhap the most well known being the 1/4 wave line that when shorted at the far end appears as an open circuit at the near end. Perhaps a little known one is the 1/8 wavelength line that can produce an input reactance when the far end is an open circuit or a short circuit. If we can do this with the magnetic delay line then a far end reluctance (air gap) could produce an input magnetic reactance, of interest being a magnetic capacitance Cm (in the magnetic domain obeying Flux=Cm*dU/dt where U is mmf). If such a thing as Cm really did exist, for sinusoidal AC it would appear as an energy source. Should we get anomalous energy from that source it could be argued that the anomalous phase shift between coil current and the magnetization within the coil (something that doesn't happen in the classical transformer) enables the magnetization dipoles to give up that anomalous energy. Smudge

chief kolbacict	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #161 on: 2023-08-14, 17:35:08 »
Sr. Member Posts: 274	maybe will be useful. I suppose, google-translate will be able translate it. ------------------------ диффузия магнитного поля в ферромагнетиках.pdf (300.69 kB - downloaded 119 times.)

Centraflow	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #162 on: 2023-08-15, 10:53:28 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	This is a scope shot of a positive delayed discharge into a coil. Both the pulses are positive with around 200v differential. Regards Mike ------------------------ Magnetic Delay Transformer STEAP delay shotgun effect.png (40.38 kB, 1782x952 - viewed 402 times.) --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

Allcanadian	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #163 on: 2023-08-16, 02:26:14 »
Hero Member Posts: 2735	Smudge Quote Strange that you should say there is no A field when every book I have read on EM mentions it, and there is a strong move towards the A field being more fundamental then the B field. From ChatGPT Quote The magnetic vector potential is not a "real field" The magnetic vector potential, often denoted as "A," is a concept used in classical electromagnetism to describe the magnetic field in certain situations. It is a mathematical construct that helps represent the magnetic field in cases where it might be more convenient than directly dealing with the magnetic field itself. Here we need to be careful and not confuse a description/construct relating to something with the real thing being described. Quote Your statement that "curl(A)" simply describes how a real magnetic field polarity seems to shift around objects is bizarre and naive. It is a pity that the name Curl implies bent file line because there are curl fields that are not bent. A better description of the Curl function is "the manner in which a vector field changes value at right angles to itself" (in rectangular co-ordinates the Curl function contains only terms such as dAx/dy and dAx/dz which is exactly that). From ChatGPT Quote The curl of a vector field A, often denoted as ∇ × A, is a mathematical operation that yields a vector quantity. It describes how the vector field A "circulates" or "curls" around a point in space. In other words, the curl of A at a given point represents the local rotation or angular momentum of the field around that point. I was describing what I actually measured and saw in line with the definition of the term. The polarity ie. field direction shifts around the object or conductor. For example, take a compass and move it around the z axis of a magnet or current carrying conductor. The needle/polarity indicator moves to align perpendicular to an imaginary point at the center indicating a curl or curve in the field direction. Even stranger, the curl is associated with a supposed circulation yet there is no indication the field can rotate around it's polar axis. It can induce on any movement along x, y and z axis but not on a rotation around z. I would put it this way, I understand your perspective and seeing it through your eyes might agree. However most of the FE inventors of the past would disagree and in order to succeed I had to understand there more hands on perspective of things. Understand most geniuses and successful FE inventors were always labelled bizarre and naive. So I would tend to take your statement as a compliment and not an insult. It doesn't suit my Engineering background but I have begun to see the virtues and independence in it... AC --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

Smudge	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #164 on: 2023-08-19, 17:01:41 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	Here is a paper discussing magnetic capacitance. Since science does not have a name for such a magnetic component I have named it Mapacitance. If it can be generated by using magnetic delay along a core then we could have an anomalous energy source. If so I believe the source to be the atomic dipoles (electron spins and orbits) responsible for the magnetization of the core. Enjoy! Smudge ------------------------ Magnetic Capacitance.pdf (778.38 kB - downloaded 219 times.)

Centraflow	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #165 on: 2023-08-19, 17:42:23 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2982	Smudge Seems an interesting paper, will study it tomorrow. The photo I posted of a delay line is real. The upper pulses are at 1.2kv and the bottom at 800v, a positive differential of 400v. These pulses are used to run a parallel LC circuit which has a core made up of 2 capacitor plates which are configured as 2 loops. These loops heat up and the electrons in the metal are driven into a higher energy state. The core is part of the LC circuit, a positive to positive differential unlike the conventional induction heater running positive to negative sine wave. The outcome of this is a result of OU when the collection is connected as a regenerative oscillator by using 2 further capacitive plates which are not subject to induction heating. The passive delay line is an important part to making this work. The current is near infinite, a closed metal loop running through an induction coil. Usable output is a positive positive AC/DC differential. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

chief kolbacict	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #166 on: 2023-08-19, 18:54:45 »
Sr. Member Posts: 274	If you mechanical move the magnetic circuit at a speed equal to or greater than the speed of the magnetic field in it ? magnetic induction from the primary winding will never reach the secondary ?

Classic	Re: Magnetic Delay Transformer « Reply #167 on: 2023-08-20, 13:48:01 »
Group: Restricted Sr. Member Posts: 270	Is it possible that geometry of the core to have different effects of magnetic field ? What is best magnetic conductor ? Can we use magnetic transmission in the same way as for electricity, I mean a wire to conduct magnetism more than electricity as electricity is always accompanied with magnetism ? Do magnet shape have any influence on behaviour of magnetic field ? I mean do we have same effect obtained from a cylinder magnet polarised on the length versus on diameter ? How a cuboid magnet behave ?

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