Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons

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Author Topic: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons (Read 8087 times)

TinMan	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #50 on: 2018-04-07, 07:02:17 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: TinMan on 2018-04-07, 05:39:24 Anymore thoughts on the subject of the thread ION?. Anyway,some more tests i carried out with the single loop through the toroid transformer. Here i have 58 odd % of the secondary loop shielded by a half loop of thick steel pipe,and see no reduction in output of the secondary loop. I also see virtually no increase in the magnetic field,or any sign of the poynting vector playing a part in the induction of the secondary. In the next video(will post when done in next reply),you will see i have shielded 78% of the secondary loop,and once again-no reduction seen in output by the secondary. Seems to me that only 1 small part of the secondary loop has to be exposed to the electric field in order to gain maximum output from the secondary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n84bPUWLLLY Brad Here is the next video. Here i have 78% of the secondary loop shielded from the electric field. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqXC7Qjrh1Y Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Smudge	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #51 on: 2018-04-07, 19:32:08 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	Brad, If you put your scope probe across the ends of the steel pipe you will find the voltage induced there in just the same way that it gets induced across the one turn secondary. Thus the steel pipe does not screen that induction, just as you have demonstrated. This tells us that the induced electric field is not the same as the normal Coulomb electric field that you get around electric charge. It is different and can' t be screened in the normal way. You do get something like screening if you connect the two end of the pipe together so that is appears as a shorted turn, and that's something you could easily do and put up a video. Again that is not quite the same as conventional electric screening since there is now some interaction with the magnetic field that is driving the induction. But you will see a reduction in the voltage across your CSR (and your input power will go up tremendously as the system drives into an almost short circuit load. If you can't work at that power level then reduce the variac voltage until you can drive that load, then compare your CSR voltage with that when you remove the short across to steel tube. ) As a matter of interest other people have tried to do what you show with the intention of using the steel pipe to shield the *magnetic* field coming from the load current, arguing that the primary will not now see the presence of the secondary because of that magnetic shielding effect. Unfortunately that doesn't work either because that magnetic shield adds inductance to the secondary and that affects the amount of current flowing in the secondary. A perfect magnetic shield still allows the voltage to be induced into the secondary, but now its inductance is infinite and no AC current can flow. This effect doesn't show up in your experiment because of your low frequency. Smudge

TinMan	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #52 on: 2018-04-08, 01:15:05 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Smudge on 2018-04-07, 19:32:08 Brad, If you put your scope probe across the ends of the steel pipe you will find the voltage induced there in just the same way that it gets induced across the one turn secondary. Thus the steel pipe does not screen that induction, just as you have demonstrated. This tells us that the induced electric field is not the same as the normal Coulomb electric field that you get around electric charge. It is different and can' t be screened in the normal way. You do get something like screening if you connect the two end of the pipe together so that is appears as a shorted turn, and that's something you could easily do and put up a video. Again that is not quite the same as conventional electric screening since there is now some interaction with the magnetic field that is driving the induction. But you will see a reduction in the voltage across your CSR (and your input power will go up tremendously as the system drives into an almost short circuit load. If you can't work at that power level then reduce the variac voltage until you can drive that load, then compare your CSR voltage with that when you remove the short across to steel tube. ) As a matter of interest other people have tried to do what you show with the intention of using the steel pipe to shield the *magnetic* field coming from the load current, arguing that the primary will not now see the presence of the secondary because of that magnetic shielding effect. Unfortunately that doesn't work either because that magnetic shield adds inductance to the secondary and that affects the amount of current flowing in the secondary. A perfect magnetic shield still allows the voltage to be induced into the secondary, but now its inductance is infinite and no AC current can flow. This effect doesn't show up in your experiment because of your low frequency. Smudge Hi Smudge What i was showing is that it is the electric field that induces the secondary-not the magnetic field. The magnetic field is a bi-product of current flow,and not the inducer. There is also the fact that the toroid dose a very good job at containing the magnetic field of the primary-as can be seen in my first video,where i have the sniffer coil around the steel pipe,and we see virtually no change in magnetic induced induction when the single loop secondary is loaded via the CVR. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

ion	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #53 on: 2018-04-08, 15:24:36 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	To continue with the idea of the shorted steel pipe, here is an interesting variation with an non-shorted magnetic "turn". We thread a C-I Laminated stack through the center of the driving toroid. Now we still have a path through the center that is nearly magnetically shorted, but electrically it is open due to the insulating varnish of the laminations. Now all around the C-I stack we put say 10 turns of wire. Electrically we have only a single turn of wire passing through the driving toroid (the ten turns are actually just a single turn passing through the center.) All of the B field is inside the driving toroid so there should be no B field coupling to our laminated stack. The output of our 10 turns should measure as just a single turn and there should be no transformer action. The loading effect on the driving toroid should be the same as if just a single turn were passed through the center and it will not "see" the insulated laminated stack. This would be the same as trying to link two toroidal inductors as "chain" links. Quote Anymore thoughts on the subject of the thread ION?. To answer that Brad, I'm still pondering the idea of the thread, have not abandoned it, and will offer something when I have further thoughts worthy of posting. Regards --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Smudge	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #54 on: 2018-04-08, 15:37:01 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: TinMan on 2018-04-08, 01:15:05 Hi Smudge What i was showing is that it is the electric field that induces the secondary-not the magnetic field. Yes I realise that, it is an electric field that drives the electrons in the secondary. Quote The magnetic field is a bi-product of current flow,and not the inducer. But it is the time-changing magnetic field in the toroidal core that *creates* the electric field, and that comes about via the magnetic vector potential that exists outside the core. You can't claim the magnetic field as a by-product since it is an essential part of the electric field creation. Quote There is also the fact that the toroid dose a very good job at containing the magnetic field of the primary Indeed it does when the primary and secondary are wound on top of each other. Some people are mystified as to how you can get voltage induction into the secondary when it is not actually in contact with the magnetic field. The answer is that it is in contact with the magnetic vector potential that forms closed loops around the core. Smudge

Smudge	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #55 on: 2018-04-09, 16:21:49 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	I think it pertinent to ask the question, how does the presence of a time-changing magnetic field confined within a core create an electric field outside of the core? What exactly are the carriers that come out of the core? Indeed what are the carriers for any electric field? I think the clue might come from what is called “hidden momentum”. There are a number of papers that explore the development of electromagnetic theory that define a form of momentum that is not the well-known mechanical mv, mass times velocity where the vector direction is determined by the velocity v. It is qA, charge times magnetic vector potential where the vector direction is determined by the magnetic vector potential A. Any matter particle that has both mass and charge will have a total momentum given by mv + qA. And since force is related to rate-of-change of momentum then two things can create a force, rate-of-change of v and/or rate-of-change of A. The first is of course the well-known mechanical inertia force and the second one science has chosen to name as an electric force. That qA momentum is termed “hidden” because it is not the recognized mechanical momentum. If at first sight the presence of non-mechanical momentum seems strange, perhaps it becomes clearer if one delves further into the question posed above, what are the carriers for an electric field? If we consider those carriers to have momentum, then is it not possible that some form of momentum exchange between the matter particle and those carriers is really the cause of the electric force? Then the well-known electric force F = -q dA/dt does not come from rate-of-change hidden momentum, but does indeed come from rate-of-change of supplied momentum. The momentum is supplied from impact by (or rather absorption and emission of) some form of space quanta or virtual particle that carries momentum, but also carries information on how the matter particle will react to that. Of course we must have an enormous quantity of space particles that would otherwise play a game of ping-pong with the matter particle causing Heisenberg uncertainty or jitter but no average force. However this averaging to zero could be changed by space particles emitted from something nearby (like the magnetic dipoles within the core) to create an observable force. It seems likely that the two forms or electric field, the Coulomb field E = -grad f and the induction field E = -dA/dt could both be explained by space quanta emanating from nearby charges, and the forces they create are genuinely produced by momentum exchange. For this to happen the space particles must travel at light velocity and must carry momentum. They must also have some vector quantity like spin that carries information about the distant charge from which they were emitted. Something like positive charges emit space particles with their spin pointing forwards (along their velocity) and negative charges emit space particles with their spin pointing backwards. That defines the Coulomb field. If the emitting charge is moving the spin direction as “seen” by a distant matter particle will not be aligned with its velocity and that misalignment could account for magnetic effects. Just some food for thought. Smudge

forest	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #56 on: 2018-04-09, 18:53:02 »
Sr. Member Posts: 472	Smudge I agree with your theory, in fact I have thought about something similar already in the past. To complete theory you must however describe how the electric field create magnetic field.

TinMan	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #57 on: 2018-04-10, 06:16:28 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Smudge on 2018-04-09, 16:21:49 I think it pertinent to ask the question, how does the presence of a time-changing magnetic field confined within a core create an electric field outside of the core? What exactly are the carriers that come out of the core? Indeed what are the carriers for any electric field? I think the clue might come from what is called “hidden momentum”. There are a number of papers that explore the development of electromagnetic theory that define a form of momentum that is not the well-known mechanical mv, mass times velocity where the vector direction is determined by the velocity v. It is qA, charge times magnetic vector potential where the vector direction is determined by the magnetic vector potential A. Any matter particle that has both mass and charge will have a total momentum given by mv + qA. And since force is related to rate-of-change of momentum then two things can create a force, rate-of-change of v and/or rate-of-change of A. The first is of course the well-known mechanical inertia force and the second one science has chosen to name as an electric force. That qA momentum is termed “hidden” because it is not the recognized mechanical momentum. If at first sight the presence of non-mechanical momentum seems strange, perhaps it becomes clearer if one delves further into the question posed above, what are the carriers for an electric field? If we consider those carriers to have momentum, then is it not possible that some form of momentum exchange between the matter particle and those carriers is really the cause of the electric force? Then the well-known electric force F = -q dA/dt does not come from rate-of-change hidden momentum, but does indeed come from rate-of-change of supplied momentum. The momentum is supplied from impact by (or rather absorption and emission of) some form of space quanta or virtual particle that carries momentum, but also carries information on how the matter particle will react to that. Of course we must have an enormous quantity of space particles that would otherwise play a game of ping-pong with the matter particle causing Heisenberg uncertainty or jitter but no average force. However this averaging to zero could be changed by space particles emitted from something nearby (like the magnetic dipoles within the core) to create an observable force. It seems likely that the two forms or electric field, the Coulomb field E = -grad f and the induction field E = -dA/dt could both be explained by space quanta emanating from nearby charges, and the forces they create are genuinely produced by momentum exchange. For this to happen the space particles must travel at light velocity and must carry momentum. They must also have some vector quantity like spin that carries information about the distant charge from which they were emitted. Something like positive charges emit space particles with their spin pointing forwards (along their velocity) and negative charges emit space particles with their spin pointing backwards. That defines the Coulomb field. If the emitting charge is moving the spin direction as “seen” by a distant matter particle will not be aligned with its velocity and that misalignment could account for magnetic effects. Just some food for thought. Smudge So,if i can show you an EMF being produced across a coil,where there is no magnetic field present,would you rethink your belief about a changing magnetic field being the producer of the electric field? The electric field exist around a coil before current flows through it,and the magnetic field onlly exist once current starts to flow. Will an EMF on my secondary (in my DUT) be in phase with the voltage across my primary,or will it be in phase with the current flowing through my primary?. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Smudge	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #58 on: 2018-04-10, 11:33:20 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: TinMan on 2018-04-10, 06:16:28 So,if i can show you an EMF being produced across a coil,where there is no magnetic field present,would you rethink your belief about a changing magnetic field being the producer of the electric field? Depends on the exhibition. If you just show the transient situation where the magnetic field is zero (but actually passing through zero) while the coil produces a voltage I would not be impressed. If you can show emf being produced over a period of time while there is zero magnetic field over that period of time then I would be prepared to rethink things. Quote The electric field exist around a coil before current flows through it,and the magnetic field onlly exist once current starts to flow. Would you like to expand on that statement as it doesn't make sense to me? What have you observed to lead you to that belief? Quote Will an EMF on my secondary (in my DUT) be in phase with the voltage across my primary,or will it be in phase with the current flowing through my primary?. The answer depends on the conditions. Firstly I assume that you have a low impedance voltage source driving the transformer (for current driven transformers the answers would be different). Secondly I assume that you have a good transformer with tight coupling between primary and secondary so that leakage flux is negligible. (a). If the secondary is open circuit the only current flowing is the primary magnetizing current that is 90 degree phase shifted from the primary voltage. The secondary voltage is in-phase with the primary voltage, so it is 90 degree shifted from the primary current. The magnetic flux is of course related to that magnetizing current. (b). Now apply a light load and we get secondary current, we also get primary load-current that is in phase with its voltage. Primary magnetizing-current remains 90 degree shifted from its voltage, so the two quadrature components of current (magnetizing plus load) form a vector that is less than 90 degree shifted from voltage. Magnetizing-current and its consequent magnetic flux remain at their previous values. Secondary voltage remains in phase with primary voltage, but is now at less than 90 degrees shifted from primary current. (c). Moving to a heavy load that draws primary load-current much greater than magnetizing-current we end up with primary current almost in phase with primary voltage. The secondary voltage is still in phase with primary voltage but now also almost in phase with primary current. The (now relatively small) magnetizing-current and its consequent magnetic flux remain at their previous values. (d). If you take this further to a very heavy load that is almost a short circuit you get to a situation where the system is unable so sustain the same value of flux, currents are so high that primary and secondary resistance cause voltage drops that affect what you are measuring so I can't give a definitive answer. What some people find hard to believe is that the high values of primary and secondary load currents that are in-phase with the voltages do not themselves produce any magnetic flux. (They do in a poor transformer where they drive leakage flux). The two load currents flow in opposite directions around the core and have a cancelling effect. That begs the question, if the secondary current does not produce any magnetic field how does the primary know that the secondary is there? The answer is that the secondary produces a mmf (ampere-turns) and the transformer has the ability to always match up the primary load-current mmf to that value. It acts something like a balanced bridge in that respect. Smudge

ion	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #59 on: 2018-04-10, 14:31:13 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	From smudge: Quote (d). If you take this further to a very heavy load that is almost a short circuit you get to a situation where the system is unable so sustain the same value of flux, currents are so high that primary and secondary resistance cause voltage drops that affect what you are measuring so I can't give a definitive answer. You can go one step further, where identical primary and secondary are driven from the same source but out of phase. I believe this is the "worst case scenario" SM teaches, which if there is no core and no magnetizing current to consider, it results in nearly complete flux cancellation, depending of course on how skillfully our air core transformer is constructed to eliminate leakage flux. In this case can anyone guess where the input power can go, assuming low loss in the resistance of the wire and unique construction of the coils? In the ideal world of simulations, and zero ohmic losses, no power is absorbed by our ideal transformer. Of course, a shorted secondary would produce the same results in a Spice sim, as it is similar in principle to driving the secondary out of phase. In the real world, and with purposeful elastic construction, large vibratory repulsive forces would occur between the windings. This is not available to transformers in typical Spice simulations but may be available in other magnetic sim programs e.g. for motor design. It leads to some interesting musings and possibilities. Regards --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Smudge	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #60 on: 2018-04-10, 15:57:30 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: ION on 2018-04-10, 14:31:13 From smudge: You can go one step further, where identical primary and secondary are driven from the same source but out of phase. I believe this is the "worst case scenario" SM teaches, which if there is no core and no magnetizing current to consider, it results in nearly complete flux cancellation, depending of course on how skillfully our air core transformer is constructed to eliminate leakage flux. In this case can anyone guess where the input power can go, assuming low loss in the resistance of the wire and unique construction of the coils? Well it goes into the internal resistance of your voltage generator since that is effectively seeing a short circuit. There is no power transfer into your transformer so the input power there is zero. Smudge

ion	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #61 on: 2018-04-10, 19:52:40 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Smudge on 2018-04-10, 15:57:30 Well it goes into the internal resistance of your voltage generator since that is effectively seeing a short circuit. There is no power transfer into your transformer so the input power there is zero. Smudge That is the correct answer if the windings cannot physically move. If they can physically move they will push apart on each half wave, and if the medium they are embedded in has resistive rather than perfect elastic properties, the medium will get hot as the coils perform work on it. If the medium has perfect elasticity, it will absorb the mechanical energy and release it 90 degrees later......if I am visualizing all this correctly. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

verpies	Re: Conjecture: Unidirectional Acceleration Of Electrons « Reply #62 on: 2018-11-18, 00:09:41 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: Smudge on 2018-04-09, 16:21:49 I think it pertinent to ask the question, how does the presence of a time-changing magnetic field confined within a core create an electric field outside of the core? What exactly are the carriers that come out of the core? Indeed what are the carriers for any electric field? According to D.B. Larson, the motion of magnetic flux is a 2D motion, that cancels part of the 3D motion, that constitutes any gravitating body (matter), and the remaining 1D motion is the electric force. 3D - 2D = 1D.

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