14 times hydrogen production using sound waves.

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Author Topic: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. (Read 4178 times)

Paul-R	14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « on: 2022-12-21, 17:11:06 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	"Engineers in Melbourne have used sound waves to boost production of green hydrogen by 14 times, through electrolysis to split water. They say their invention offers a promising way to tap into a plentiful supply of cheap hydrogen fuel for transportation and other sectors, which could radically reduce carbon emissions and help fight climate change. By using high-frequency vibrations to “divide and conquer” individual water molecules during electrolysis, the team managed to split the water molecules to release 14 times more hydrogen compared with standard electrolysis techniques". https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/all-news/2022/dec/green-hydrogen https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aenm.202203164 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aenm.202203164 We have seen similar claims often enough before but this looks potentially interesting. I notice that 10Mkz is quoted and this is close to 8 octaves on from Keely's 42.8khz frequency.

F6FLT	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #1 on: 2022-12-22, 12:00:51 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	It's interesting but you have to be wary of high-sounding titles. In fact the advantage of the method is above all to increase the current density, therefore to obtain stronger currents without higher voltages. It should therefore not be imagined that the energy gain would be 14 times compared to other systems, which would mean OU. If we read their paper carefully, we realize that the energy gain is "only" 27%. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Paul-R	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #2 on: 2022-12-22, 13:01:01 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-12-22, 12:00:51 It's interesting but you have to be wary of high-sounding titles. In fact the advantage of the method is above all to increase the current density, therefore to obtain stronger currents without higher voltages. It should therefore not be imagined that the energy gain would be 14 times compared to other systems, which would mean OU. If we read their paper carefully, we realize that the energy gain is "only" 27%. Interesting point. Have you discovered why they use 10Mhz? I have written to one of the authors to remind him that this frequency is close to 8 octaves above Keely's 42.8khz.

F6FLT	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #3 on: 2022-12-22, 14:07:47 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: Paul-R on 2022-12-22, 13:01:01 Interesting point. Have you discovered why they use 10Mhz? I have written to one of the authors to remind him that this frequency is close to 8 octaves above Keely's 42.8khz. Numerology Kelly has nothing to do with science but with incoherent imitation. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Paul-R	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #4 on: 2022-12-22, 17:39:58 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-12-22, 14:07:47 Numerology Kelly has nothing to do with science but with incoherent imitation. You're entitled to your opinion, F6, but not to package it as fact.

chief kolbacict	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #5 on: 2022-12-22, 18:50:53 »
Sr. Member Posts: 275	Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-12-22, 14:07:47 Kelly has nothing to do with science but with incoherent imitation. Patrick Kelly really has most of the devices in the book outright bullshit. I read it, 3000 pages, I seems. But is it all? And what is the purpose of this book anyway? This book is very popular.

Hakasays	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #6 on: 2022-12-22, 19:12:16 »
Hero Member Posts: 568	Quote from: Paul-R on 2022-12-21, 17:11:06 "Engineers in Melbourne have used sound waves to boost production of green hydrogen by 14 times, through electrolysis to split water. They say their invention offers a promising way to tap into a plentiful supply of cheap hydrogen fuel for transportation and other sectors, which could radically reduce carbon emissions and help fight climate change. By using high-frequency vibrations to “divide and conquer” individual water molecules during electrolysis, the team managed to split the water molecules to release 14 times more hydrogen compared with standard electrolysis techniques". https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/all-news/2022/dec/green-hydrogen https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aenm.202203164 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aenm.202203164 We have seen similar claims often enough before but this looks potentially interesting. I notice that 10Mkz is quoted and this is close to 8 octaves on from Keely's 42.8khz frequency. A very interesting piece, but sadly they don't give a lot of info regarding the accoustic input power. Good news is the concept seems somewhat within the realm of the amateur, perhaps even an ultrasonic transducer would have some level of effect on electrolysis efficiency? --------------------------- "An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."

Chet K	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #7 on: 2022-12-22, 19:45:49 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Witts ministry “worlds most efficient hot water heater “ Never said how it was claimed to work However always assumed …Transducer in a spherical chamber ? That’s an itch you just can’t scratch …( playing with the what if’s ?) And now this claim with frequencies from Australia ! BTW I was told by someone who tried to visit or witness some of The Witts ( Timothy Thrapp’s claims , so as to “open source “ _Bring money_ seemed the big requirement .. and “worlds most efficient hot water heater “ Wasn’t on the menu of offerings … Also was Not a good result from that exchange , thankfully no money changed hands … Thanks for starting this topic .. it gives pause on the what if’s Even F6’s observation on “additional pressure “ ? Food for thought ! Sorry for drifting off topic a bit ..

JimBoot	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #8 on: 2022-12-22, 22:00:01 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 1770	Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-12-22, 12:00:51 It's interesting but you have to be wary of high-sounding titles. In fact the advantage of the method is above all to increase the current density, therefore to obtain stronger currents without higher voltages. It should therefore not be imagined that the energy gain would be 14 times compared to other systems, which would mean OU. If we read their paper carefully, we realize that the energy gain is "only" 27%. “The efficiency of hydrogen production through electrolysis is typically measured by the energy efficiency ratio (EER), which is defined as the ratio of the energy content of the produced hydrogen to the energy input required to produce it. An EER of 1 indicates that the energy content of the produced hydrogen is equal to the energy input required to produce it, while an EER greater than 1 indicates that the energy content of the produced hydrogen is greater than the energy input required to produce it. The use of high-frequency hybrid sound waves to enhance the efficiency of hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in neutral electrolytes, as described in the research you mentioned, has been reported to result in a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%. This suggests that the energy content of the hydrogen produced through this method is greater than the energy input required to produce it, resulting in an EER greater than 1.“ I asked a mate about the paper.

Hakasays	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #9 on: 2022-12-23, 00:40:01 »
Hero Member Posts: 568	Quote from: JimBoot on 2022-12-22, 22:00:01 “The efficiency of hydrogen production through electrolysis is typically measured by the energy efficiency ratio (EER), which is defined as the ratio of the energy content of the produced hydrogen to the energy input required to produce it. An EER of 1 indicates that the energy content of the produced hydrogen is equal to the energy input required to produce it, while an EER greater than 1 indicates that the energy content of the produced hydrogen is greater than the energy input required to produce it. The use of high-frequency hybrid sound waves to enhance the efficiency of hydrogen evolution reactions (HER) in neutral electrolytes, as described in the research you mentioned, has been reported to result in a net-positive energy saving of 27.3%. This suggests that the energy content of the hydrogen produced through this method is greater than the energy input required to produce it, resulting in an EER greater than 1.“ I asked a mate about the paper. Interesting, thanks . One possibility though is that they may just be measuring the electrolysis efficiency and not the full system efficiency (ie: leaving out the watts consumed by the accoustics). But even if the full system efficiency ends up below 1, it might still be a drastic improvement of what we use now. --------------------------- "An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."

F6FLT	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #10 on: 2022-12-23, 14:23:34 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	@JimBoot And how is the EER calculated? Where do you see that the energy needed to generate the 10 MHz sound effect is included? The EER is not the COP! No, scientists are still not talking about OU. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

chief kolbacict	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #11 on: 2022-12-23, 18:32:40 »
Sr. Member Posts: 275	Quote from: Chet K on 2022-12-22, 19:45:49 Also was Not a good result from that exchange , thankfully no money changed hands … Caption on the picture: Remember, Yasha, in business the main thing is experience. If a person with money and a person with experience meet, then the person with experience leaves with money, and the person who had money will remain with experience. ------------------------ 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. proxail.ru.jpg (83.45 kB, 563x748 - viewed 589 times.)

russwr	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #12 on: 2022-12-28, 18:11:57 »
Full Member Posts: 119	John Keely"s method of making efficient hydrogen gas from water during his shop work of 1865-1899, was to apply resonant frequency of water cavity steel ball with also thirds upper harmonics . There are reference books on his demonstrations . The last updated mechanism was called "The Disintegrater" The upper frequencies were formed using array of tuning forks and output sectional wire of silver, gold, platinum, depending on what was needed. Nodes of them were placed on wire so as joint became disruptive and formed certain RATIOS applied. Nowdays we call them thermocouples and thermopiles. I had determined from past readings , that at one point he had unknowingly discovered Deuterium heavy water , as oily residue in chamber after hundreds of expulsions. Everyone knows that one of every 5000 molecules of tap water is deuterium and can be specially filtered out. (The exact frequencies applied didn't affect the Heavy Water)

Paul-R	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #13 on: 2022-12-28, 23:10:32 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-12-23, 14:23:34 No, scientists are still not talking about OU. It depends on the definition of OU. The most useful I have come across is Patrick's: the ratio of the energy out divided by the energy YOU put in. (People are expected not to be so childish as to apply this to heat pumps and pv panels).

Paul-R	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #14 on: 2023-01-04, 17:47:39 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-12-22, 14:07:47 Numerology Kelly has nothing to do with science but with incoherent imitation. He was an archivist.

MasterBlaster	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #15 on: 2023-01-05, 14:36:03 »
Jr. Member Posts: 77	I need to share with you all what has been going through my mind for a number of years. No one to date can claim they have replicated a working WFC. Not even David Lawton, Valentin or H2opower. I too tried and failed. Meyer said he believed in KISS method. That does not mean simply two concentric tubes. In his demonstration in "It run's on water" he shows his cell. look at the atached picture from the video. The arrangement is more than two concentric tubes. The way the tubes are flattened and attached to the base reveal a deeper thinking. I believe vibration of the tubes played a part in this. May be ultrasonic. At least one tube would need to vibrate. ------------------------ 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. WFC.jpg (121.79 kB, 640x474 - viewed 376 times.)

Hakasays	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #16 on: 2023-01-05, 16:29:17 »
Hero Member Posts: 568	Quote from: MasterBlaster on 2023-01-05, 14:36:03 I need to share with you all what has been going through my mind for a number of years. No one to date can claim they have replicated a working WFC. Not even David Lawton, Valentin or H2opower. I too tried and failed. Meyer said he believed in KISS method. That does not mean simply two concentric tubes. In his demonstration in "It run's on water" he shows his cell. look at the atached picture from the video. The arrangement is more than two concentric tubes. The way the tubes are flattened and attached to the base reveal a deeper thinking. I believe vibration of the tubes played a part in this. May be ultrasonic. At least one tube would need to vibrate. I recall Mark McKay talked to at least one original witness that said the Meyer vehicle ran with a strong ammonia smell (presumably a similar process to the nitrogen fixation with an arc the same way you make nitric acid) Do you recall this or have any thoughts if it might align with your model? --------------------------- "An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."

MasterBlaster	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #17 on: 2023-01-05, 16:53:50 »
Jr. Member Posts: 77	Nitrogen is a non-combustable gas and perhaps used to low down the burn rate of hydrogen.

Hakasays	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #18 on: 2023-01-06, 02:41:10 »
Hero Member Posts: 568	Found it, looks like it was Aaron's references I heard, not McKay https://emediapress.com/2016/02/07/stan-meyers-real-original-water-fuel-method/ If I understand correctly, it's essentially a proposal for taking advantage of synthesized the waterfuel gas and using it partially as a catalyst for an ammonia reaction which is then burnt as fuel. N₂ + H₂ -> NH₃ (in a catalytic arc condition) 2NH₃ + 3O₂ -> 2NO₂ + 2H+ + 2H₂O Not that I agree with his synopsis, but I thought I'd pass along what seemed like a novel interpretation of Meyer's work. --------------------------- "An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."

F6FLT	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #19 on: 2023-01-06, 07:22:52 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: Paul-R on 2022-12-28, 23:10:32 It depends on the definition of OU. The most useful I have come across is Patrick's: the ratio of the energy out divided by the energy YOU put in. (People are expected not to be so childish as to apply this to heat pumps and pv panels). According to this definition a heat pump produces OU, but this is not what we want because a heat pump requires electrical energy which is not free. I suggest to keep this definition but on condition that we talk about "useful energy", that is to say energy that can be converted from one form to another without theoretical loss (potential, magnetic, electric, kinetic...). This includes all forms of energy EXCEPT thermal energy. If we have OU with these energies, then we can loop the system, while this is not possible with a heat pump. Thermal energy is a degraded form of energy, it is the one that represents the main losses of all the other forms of energy when we transform them. OU concerning thermal energy does not allow "free energy" unless the COP was really big (e.g. COP=10? to be specified), so we really have to differentiate thermal energy from others. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

MasterBlaster	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #20 on: 2023-01-06, 11:32:38 »
Jr. Member Posts: 77	Quote from: MasterBlaster on 2023-01-05, 14:36:03 I need to share with you all what has been going through my mind for a number of years. No one to date can claim they have replicated a working WFC. Not even David Lawton, Valentin or H2opower. I too tried and failed. Meyer said he believed in KISS method. That does not mean simply two concentric tubes. In his demonstration in "It run's on water" he shows his cell. look at the atached picture from the video. The arrangement is more than two concentric tubes. The way the tubes are flattened and attached to the base reveal a deeper thinking. I believe vibration of the tubes played a part in this. May be ultrasonic. At least one tube would need to vibrate. While I am at it, there are two more natable points on that video: He caps the container and there is a guage perhaps to maintain a certain pressure in the vessell. ------------------------ 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. Tighten.jpg (91.94 kB, 635x427 - viewed 317 times.) 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. Guage.jpg (112.11 kB, 632x472 - viewed 325 times.)

Paul-R	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #21 on: 2023-08-15, 23:07:47 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Quote from: Paul-R on 2022-12-21, 17:11:06 "Engineers in Melbourne have used sound waves to boost production of green hydrogen by 14 times, through electrolysis to split water. They say their invention offers a promising way to tap into a plentiful supply of cheap hydrogen fuel for transportation and other sectors, which could radically reduce carbon emissions and help fight climate change. By using high-frequency vibrations to “divide and conquer” individual water molecules during electrolysis, the team managed to split the water molecules to release 14 times more hydrogen compared with standard electrolysis techniques". https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/all-news/2022/dec/green-hydrogen https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aenm.202203164 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aenm.202203164 We have seen similar claims often enough before but this looks potentially interesting. I notice that 10Mkz is quoted and this is close to 8 octaves on from Keely's 42.8khz frequency. With so many towns setting up Low Emission Zones in Europe, and LA, San Francisco and New York looking into it, I thought I'd bump this thread. If feeding H2 or O2 into carbs can turn a non compliant engine into a compliant one, then this tech might be worth pushing hard on, regardless of fuel consumption improvements. What are the leading hydrolyser technologies?

JimBoot	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #22 on: 2023-08-16, 12:10:15 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 1770	For the above we need. Amplifier Specifications: Frequency Range: The amplifier should be capable of handling a frequency range from 20 kHz to 2 MHz. This range ensures that the amplifier can support the ultrasonic frequencies generated by the transducer. Power Rating: The amplifier used in the study has a power rating of up to 500 W. This indicates the maximum amount of power the amplifier can supply without risking damage or distortion. These specifications are crucial to ensure that the amplifier can adequately support and enhance the ultrasonic frequencies generated by the transducer, without any loss of fidelity or risk of damage. Any thoughts? An some of this. the catalyst used in the study for the "Acoustically-Induced Water Frustration for Enhanced Hydrogen Evolution Reaction in Neutral Electrolytes" is: MoS2 (Molybdenum Disulfide) Here are some details and context: Nature of the Catalyst: MoS2 is a layered material with a structure similar to that of graphite. It belongs to the family of transition metal dichalcogenides. Reason for Selection: MoS2 is known for its catalytic properties, especially for the hydrogen evolution reaction (HER). Its edge sites, in particular, have been identified as active sites for HER. Synthesis: The paper might provide details on how the MoS2 catalyst was synthesized or prepared. This could include methods like chemical vapor deposition, hydrothermal synthesis, or exfoliation. Morphology & Structure: MoS2 can exist in different morphologies, like nanosheets or nanoparticles. The specific form used and its structural characteristics would influence its catalytic performance. Characterization: As mentioned earlier, advanced characterization techniques like SEM and TEM were used to study the morphology and structure of the MoS2 catalyst. MoS2 has been extensively studied in recent years for its potential in various applications, including catalysis, electronics, and optoelectronics. In the context of this study, its role in facilitating the hydrogen evolution reaction, especially under the influence of acoustically-induced water frustration, is of primary interest.

Paul-R	Re: 14 times hydrogen production using sound waves. « Reply #23 on: 2023-08-20, 23:13:33 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	You might care to pay them a visit at RMIT, Jimboot; see what's going on.

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