Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias

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Author Topic: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias (Read 15430 times)

Peterae	Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « on: 2012-10-12, 20:02:41 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	OMG it works ION I am getting +4000V positive spikes and - 2000V negative spikes on my bias coil which is driven from a dc supply with chokes at each end, i am uploading pictures and video shortly. I am driving from a variable LOPTX with 1Kv gaps at each end of the system. ------------------------ Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias SAM_1800.JPG (533.45 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 1099 times.) Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias SAM_1801.JPG (532.31 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 1046 times.) Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias SAM_1802.JPG (536.18 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 1003 times.) Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias SAM_1803.JPG (524.94 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 991 times.) Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias SAM_1804.JPG (535.38 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 974 times.) Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias SAM_1807.JPG (573.67 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 716 times.)

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #1 on: 2012-10-12, 20:24:10 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	I need more current on my bias i can only drive up to 2.5V before i reach it's 1amp limit. I am using enamelled wire for each bifilar coil and red & black insulated wire for the bias coil. The bad news it looks like this is just capacitive coupling because i can turn my bias off and i still have the pulses Here's a video on me altering the HV voltage and thus varying the gaps fire speed I'm using a x1000 probe and each div is 2kv [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvBdvoBtotU&feature=youtu.be[/youtube] « Last Edit: 2012-10-12, 21:03:53 by Peterae »

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #2 on: 2012-10-12, 20:57:20 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Yeah downgrade that last WOW I am not even sure the iron delay is working, the iron losses are high and the capacitive coupling between my bifilar coils is high, i don't think this is doing me any good for a pulse through the iron delay. I think the bifilar coils should be far enough apart to minimize capacitive coupling but close enough to allow the inductive coupling remain fairly high. On an up note those positive pulses on the bias coil could potentially be harvested.

Grumpy	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #3 on: 2012-10-12, 21:18:27 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	How much iron wire is needed for a 220ns delay? (I know it is based on several other factors as well, but just wondering about the general length required)

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #4 on: 2012-10-12, 21:26:26 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	I cannot remember i built it years ago, it's variable about 3 meters of iron wire and i just crock clip down it's length, maybe i should switch to coax

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #5 on: 2012-10-13, 17:45:25 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Just found a paper about using coax for a delay line, it looks to me that you only get a couple of nS per metre length if you are lucky. I have a cunning plan though, no separate delay line is needed it can be built into the bifilar itself

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #6 on: 2012-10-13, 20:43:10 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	So here's coil 2 Not sure if this will work but here's the plan I have 2 CD's around each periphery i have taped kanthanl wire, each CD can be rotated with respect of each other thus altering the phase between each CD wire starting position, now this puts me in a position where i can run each wire either in parallel or even series and still get variable phase adjustment. and because i can run the bifilar coils in series or parallel i can now connect my choke at each end and feed with a DC bias, then connect my spark gaps on the kanthanal sides of the chokes and pulse from a single sparkgap. I had to use Kantanal for the moment as i cannot find my iron wire from years back, and i tried the method ION mentioned about unwinding the coiled but i first had to soft anneal the wire over the gas hob burner. ------------------------ Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias SAM_1811.JPG (584.35 kB, 1024x768 - viewed 740 times.)

Grumpy	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #7 on: 2012-10-13, 20:50:49 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Peterae on 2012-10-13, 17:45:25 Just found a paper about using coax for a delay line, it looks to me that you only get a couple of nS per metre length if you are lucky. I have a cunning plan though, no separate delay line is needed it can be built into the bifilar itself I suggested just a cap and inductor initially, rather than the iron wire. Same here, can't find my iron wire - it was a nice spool of wire for use in a garden for tying vegetables.

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #8 on: 2012-10-13, 21:31:44 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Quote it was a nice spool of wire for use in a garden for tying vegetables. LOL yeah i had a 50 meter reel it has green insulation over the iron wire, dam i wish i knew where it is

BEP	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #9 on: 2012-10-13, 23:00:48 »
Group: Guest	Peterae, Do you recall the little strip delay lines used in earlier TV video? I believe they could go up to 2ms and were very small. I've seen the spiral version rated for 10ms (probably what was used in the ESL speaker system.) Neither used iron as any part. I know the small strip line had a solid copper rod or strap for a core. Both used lumped circuit design. >>Edit.. The ESL delay spirals may have had iron in them but the spiral delay lines I've used/built do not.

ion	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #10 on: 2012-10-14, 01:14:55 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Iron as a delay element is probably a poor choice. I have not researched whether a variable inductor or variable cap or some combination thereof would be better or worse in terms of stability vs. temp. Air core strip delay lines as used in older TV's might be good as WW points out, however they have large ohmic losses and would be a lossy item in a Hi Q circuit, but perfectly acceptable if used correctly. Tektronix used coax transmission line in some of their older scopes for delay. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

BEP	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #11 on: 2012-10-14, 02:29:10 »
Group: Guest	A ferromagnetic wire isn't a bad choice if supported in a way to allow it to use sonic velocities for delays. -- in air or cork. Some of the frequency information provided related to TPUs would work well with the circumferences calculated if any wave velocity was at sonic speeds. ------------------------ Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias electromechanical-delayline.jpg (172.58 kB, 400x660 - viewed 768 times.)

Grumpy	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #12 on: 2012-10-14, 03:02:42 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	I have to research it, but I think the delay provided by coax is dependent on the dielectric, so a clever choice of material may net us a suitable delay in a short length. Typical coax will require 100 feet or more.

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #13 on: 2012-10-14, 07:24:26 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Quote Do you recall the little strip delay lines used in earlier TV video? Bearing in mind we use PAL in the UK I have seen 3 configs in TV's for delay lines 1 very compact chroma delay which uses a core and coils, not sure fully of the build config, they are compact and were mostly used in videos. 2 a long rod with very fine copper wire wound down it's length also Incorporated fine copper foil, these were used in early TVs for the chroma delay line. 3 Flat rectangular construction, which house a glass plate, ultra sonic transducers were used to fire sound waves through the glass medium at angles, the sonic wave bounces off the glass edges until it finally reaches the ultrasonic receiver transducer, commonly used in luminance delays. A chroma delay gives about 64uS and a luma delay gives 1-2uS I am hoping that by rotating the 2 Cd's i can vary the phase and then not need a delay line Not yet sure if it will work « Last Edit: 2012-10-14, 08:59:32 by Peterae »

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #14 on: 2012-10-14, 21:31:00 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	first tests tonight, with the 2 kanthal rings in series & bias applied each end of the series rings. Nothing really unusual noted, i have tried using one on my spare Romero motor coils with a ferrite in the middle as a sniffer, now the strange thing is that it does not matter where i place this sniffer i can pick up spikes and as i get closer to the kanthal rings the amplitude goes up but if i flip the sniffer coil over it still detects the pulses with the same polarity, i would have thought if it was a magnetic pulse i was sniffing it should switch polarity when i switch the sides of the sniffer coil. the only other thing i can note is the fire rate slows with the bias on, same if i flip the polarity of the bias voltage. Also altering the position of 1 disk to the other i can not really detect any changes « Last Edit: 2012-10-14, 21:58:10 by Peterae »

Grumpy	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #15 on: 2012-10-15, 15:17:42 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	For the dealy element, I had something like this in mind: (see attached) ------------------------ Passive delay lines_design_app1_pas.pdf (40.47 kB - downloaded 603 times.)

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #16 on: 2012-10-15, 19:50:03 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	I think that's what is used in the more modern chroma delay lines, apart from the digital ones that is. Your biggest problem i think will be attenuation and working voltage, i guess you could refine your build on a simulation though

Grumpy	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #17 on: 2012-10-15, 23:28:42 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Peterae on 2012-10-15, 19:50:03 I think that's what is used in the more modern chroma delay lines, apart from the digital ones that is. Your biggest problem i think will be attenuation and working voltage, i guess you could refine your build on a simulation though One of the lements will have to be tuned, but the values are low so no huge coils or caps to deal with.

Peterae	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #18 on: 2012-10-16, 20:10:48 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	I rewired for parallel kanthal coils and tried varying the rotation of each CD, i could not see anything unusual. The problem here is i am picking up wide band electric fields all around the disc, for instance the sniffer coil does not again show a reversal of waveform when it's flipped 180 degrees, if there was a prominent magnetic component this should be prominent enough to see a difference when the sniffer coil is flipped over, the other thing is capacitive coupling of large metal objects and the ability for them to pick up the wide band noise much more efficiently, for instance i tried an alinco magnet and a reel of solder, both showed a much increased amplitude picked up by the scope probe. HV pulsing using the spark gap's is not the answer, i need high current not high voltage bursts, i believe this is where the magic effect will be found if anywhere.

Grumpy	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #19 on: 2012-10-16, 21:14:38 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Don't expect a magnetic component.

EMdevices	Re: Testing ION's Bifilar Circuit with Bias « Reply #20 on: 2012-10-19, 05:04:58 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-10-14, 02:29:10 A ferromagnetic wire isn't a bad choice if supported in a way to allow it to use sonic velocities for delays. -- in air or cork. Some of the frequency information provided related to TPUs would work well with the circumferences calculated if any wave velocity was at sonic speeds. Delay lines are quite common even nowadays, I had to go to the DMV to renew my driver licence and encountered quite a delay line.

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