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Author Topic: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave  (Read 4611 times)
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img  CITFTA
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #25 on: 2019-10-16, 10:25:09 »

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.
Hi Jimboot,

As best I can tell from the picture the plates inside the housing appear to be a selenium rectifier.  And yes they did run hot and if one overheats to the point of burning the fumes ARE toxic.  They were rather inefficient and were replaced by the more modern and more efficient silicon pn junction diodes commonly used today.

Carroll


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Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #26 on: 2019-10-16, 10:46:08 »

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Quote from: CITFTA on 2019-10-16, 10:25:09
Hi Jimboot,

As best I can tell from the picture the plates inside the housing appear to be a selenium rectifier.  And yes they did run hot and if one overheats to the point of burning the fumes ARE toxic.  They were rather inefficient and were replaced by the more modern and more efficient silicon pn junction diodes commonly used today.

Carroll
Yikes! Thanks for the tip Carroll
   
img  CITFTA
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #27 on: 2019-10-16, 11:23:00 »

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I didn't mean to alarm you unnecessarily.  The fumes are not so deadly a couple of breathes will kill you, but the fumes are considered to be bad for your heath.  And the smell is so bad you won't stick around long to continue breathing the fumes.  Back in the 1950's my dad repaired radios and tvs.  At that time the selenium rectifiers were commonly used.  I still have some of them from his old stock of parts.



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Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   
img  Smudge
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #28 on: 2019-10-16, 16:25:47 »

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My dad was an electrical engineer and he had lots of plates from those old selenium rectifiers.  He use to carefully heat them with a blow torch to get to the temperature where the solder coating on the selenium melted and he could wipe it off.  He then had photocells that he could use on various projects.  Early solar cell arrays back in the 1950's!!
Smudge
   
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Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #29 on: 2019-10-16, 22:31:18 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2019-10-16, 16:25:47
My dad was an electrical engineer and he had lots of plates from those old selenium rectifiers.  He use to carefully heat them with a blow torch to get to the temperature where the solder coating on the selenium melted and he could wipe it off.  He then had photocells that he could use on various projects.  Early solar cell arrays back in the 1950's!!
Smudge

I love stories like that. The little things that will be lost to time. Given selenium rectifiers forward voltage drop, it make the perfomance even more curious. I'll swap it out for a power diode and compare the difference. 
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #30 on: 2019-10-16, 22:32:12 »

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Quote from: CITFTA on 2019-10-16, 11:23:00
I didn't mean to alarm you unnecessarily.  The fumes are not so deadly a couple of breathes will kill you, but the fumes are considered to be bad for your heath.  And the smell is so bad you won't stick around long to continue breathing the fumes.  Back in the 1950's my dad repaired radios and tvs.  At that time the selenium rectifiers were commonly used.  I still have some of them from his old stock of parts.

Thanks I read up about them last night. Interesting stuff.
   
img  muDped
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #31 on: 2019-10-17, 00:52:56 »

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In the 50s and 60s they were often referred to as
Selenium Dry Disk Rectifiers.  They were very common
in military electronics back then until "field changes"
were accomplished to replace them with the new
Silicon Rectifiers in the mid 60s.

Copper Oxide rectifiers were frequently encountered
back in those years as well.

The Electrolytic Rectifier was very much used by
experimenters and Ham Radio Operators for projects
because they were easy to put together and very
inexpensive.  Bulky and not too efficient but cheap.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #32 on: 2019-10-17, 05:07:06 »

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Quote from: muDped on 2019-10-17, 00:52:56
In the 50s and 60s they were often referred to as
Selenium Dry Disk Rectifiers.  They were very common
in military electronics back then until "field changes"
were accomplished to replace them with the new
Silicon Rectifiers in the mid 60s.

Copper Oxide rectifiers were frequently encountered
back in those years as well.

The Electrolytic Rectifier was very much used by
experimenters and Ham Radio Operators for projects
because they were easy to put together and very
inexpensive.  Bulky and not too efficient but cheap.
Thanks mate now I want to make one. :)
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #33 on: 2019-10-18, 09:19:28 »

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On the very long list of things I don't understand. I've been trying different power supplies with my Zenneck coils experiment. I don't understand how this selenium rectifier is delivering results that a power diode does not. Happy to do a vid.

I'm measuring the 16VAC output of the transformer in parallel to the rectifier.

The circuit only oscillates when the rectifier is in the circuit.

The DC output on a DMM is around 8V or 16VAC on same DMM. It gets better results than by DC power supply at 12VDC . Stronger field more plasma etc.

   
img  muDped
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #34 on: 2019-10-18, 22:42:40 »

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JimBoot,

Does your Oscillator require a certain specific
minimum Input Voltage to start oscillations?

Once oscillating, are the oscillations continuous
or pulsating in sync with the DC Input pulsations?

Or, are the oscillations effectively Amplitude Modulated
by the input voltage wave-shape? 

A video would be very helpful and will, no doubt,
reveal the answer to the puzzle.  Possibly a
comparison of Old vs. New?

Also, could you show us the schematic diagram of
of your Oscillator?


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #35 on: 2019-10-18, 23:29:08 »

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With the dc supply it takes at least 12v for oscillations 150ma. Continuous oscillation. With half rectified ac nothing on other adapters or the the power supply above. It’s only when the rectifier is part of the circuit. I see 50hz flickering when activated via the rectifier.

I’ll do a vid bit later. Not sure about the amp modulation.

edit. vid  https://youtu.be/_odJBpkGfrw
« Last Edit: 2019-10-19, 01:14:08 by JimBoot »
   
img  Chet K
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #36 on: 2019-10-19, 22:01:01 »
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A comment from Tinsel

TinselKoala .
   
12:24 PM (4 hours ago)
   
to me

Ask Jim to check his wiring and his photo labels.
I don't see any difference between two shots that should show a
difference according to the labels. Also it may be the case that his
old selenium rectifier is leaky or otherwise malfing. Those things are
weird. He could probably model it in his hardware by putting a
resistor across his silicon power diode, maybe.
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #37 on: 2019-10-19, 23:07:28 »

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I'm sure it's malfunctioning. There is a difference in the images. https://youtu.be/_odJBpkGfrw?t=155 . You can see the change as I add the diode at the 2:36 mark. Thanks for taking a look TK.
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #38 on: 2019-10-20, 06:40:12 »
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Hey Jim
Quote
I'm measuring the 16VAC output of the transformer in parallel to the rectifier.
The circuit only oscillates when the rectifier is in the circuit.
The DC output on a DMM is around 8V or 16VAC on same DMM. It gets better results than by DC power supply at 12VDC . Stronger field more plasma etc.

Your scope looks similar to mine, Rigol 1054Z?.

The thing about scopes is to understand what your actually seeing vs what you think your seeing. Now you say the output is around 16 VAC however in pic 3 with just the rectifier the Max peak to peak voltage on your scope shows 358 V. If the rectifier has a lower voltage rating then the current will flow both directions (AC) through the rectifier until it drops below the rectifier threshold voltage. What is the voltage rating of the rectifier?, did you test each rectifier leg for continuity?.

Sometimes I get lazy and just drop in an under rated diode or backwards diode/clipper and capacitor as a negative resistance to produce oscillations. In fact you can chop any circuit leg(s) and mix frequencies this way, pretty neat stuff. I have also smoked a diode with an over voltage, measured the new threshold and used it at the new lower rating elsewhere. Semiconductors can do weird unexpected things when they have been damaged.

Then when you add a power diode in the video it is in series with your scope probe so of course it will chop the AC into DC... but only to the probe not the circuit. Your circuit may still be operating on AC however your probe with the diode will show DC because you have only rectified the probe voltage.

As I said, it can be tricky and first we have to determine what it is we are actually measuring at the probe connection. Then we have to be pay attention to what the values are as well as the waveform.

Regards


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  Duncan
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #39 on: 2019-10-21, 04:29:19 »
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Quote from: Chet K on 2019-09-05, 20:52:14
Post 2830 or 2831 here
https://overunity.com/17735/wesleys-kapanadze-and-other-fe-discussion-forum/2820/
This info was from university of Buffalo investigation.

(I believe?)

Hi Chet I pointed out in the Thread 'The free energy circus' big oil and their cartels socio political miss direction applied to all major free energy forums .
The 'hands across the world '-wesleys-kapanadze - debacle is absolutely a classic example of this costly mind numbing crap .
I hunted for and exposed this Kapanadze cartel and oil company generated sewage for what it is some  years ago,I revisited those posts over on energetics hoping  to show you  .
I found some of the pictures I posted removed,so I re linked to them. FYI here is my comment and a link to those damming pictures. and a thread I brought to a screeching halt .

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20429-new-kapanadze-video.html#post296649

http://www.energeticforum.com/302882-post327.html

I suggest a hard look at my comments and a harder look at the pictures - (make a point of finding the arrows I inserted .) Then make a note of Kapanadze - Wesley and all the other well paid tricky bastard monkeys  identify them by any and all means  and exclude them all from everything you consider  at every possible turn in the future. certainly don't want any of these creeps near this forum.
imagine the money time and hopes these bastards wasted!! - even if it is their Job,let them do it else where.
A leopard never changes its spots. - kindest regards Duncan


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
img  Chet K
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #40 on: 2019-10-21, 13:30:12 »
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Duncan
I suppose since day one of these claims ,its buyer beware , I don't believe Wesley
is a disinfo Guy , I have met him a few times over the years . [he is close by in NYC]

He is most passionate ,Sometimes I think he projects or assumes conclusions or results prior to a thorough vetting ?


One good anomaly is all we need ...and lately there are a few which seem to have potential .


one thing is certain .....NEVER GIVE UP.

Chet

 
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #41 on: 2019-10-22, 05:42:56 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2019-10-20, 06:40:12
Hey Jim
Your scope looks similar to mine, Rigol 1054Z?.

The thing about scopes is to understand what your actually seeing vs what you think your seeing. Now you say the output is around 16 VAC however in pic 3 with just the rectifier the Max peak to peak voltage on your scope shows 358 V. If the rectifier has a lower voltage rating then the current will flow both directions (AC) through the rectifier until it drops below the rectifier threshold voltage. What is the voltage rating of the rectifier?, did you test each rectifier leg for continuity?.

Sometimes I get lazy and just drop in an under rated diode or backwards diode/clipper and capacitor as a negative resistance to produce oscillations. In fact you can chop any circuit leg(s) and mix frequencies this way, pretty neat stuff. I have also smoked a diode with an over voltage, measured the new threshold and used it at the new lower rating elsewhere. Semiconductors can do weird unexpected things when they have been damaged.

Then when you add a power diode in the video it is in series with your scope probe so of course it will chop the AC into DC... but only to the probe not the circuit. Your circuit may still be operating on AC however your probe with the diode will show DC because you have only rectified the probe voltage.

As I said, it can be tricky and first we have to determine what it is we are actually measuring at the probe connection. Then we have to be pay attention to what the values are as well as the waveform.

Regards

Yep same scope . :) I did not test the rectifiers legs. I observed the 358v and atm I think it is just the scopes' inability to measure it. I have tested other modern AC step down transformers on the same channel with the same lead. The voltage measurement on the scope is as expected. My transistor would be fried at that voltage but it runs cool.

In the video the circuit was not operating as I do not want to damage my scope. In tests the scope is replaced with the circuit. I can run the circuit with the  selenium rectifier in parallel, with and without power diode. That is what those waveforms are showing. The second image has no power diode and the rectifier is in parallel. The circuit oscillates. It does not with normal AC.

It looks as if some reverse voltage is getting through to create spiked waveform? The rectifier seems to add a load but I have not measured it. This is why I think it is faulty. I think I need to measure the load it adds.
   
img  muDped
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #42 on: 2019-10-22, 07:24:22 »

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JimBoot,

Has your 2.48K base bias resistor been selected as an
optimized value for a specific voltage range?

Do you think that a variable resistance in place of the
fixed 2.48K may offer enhanced versatility?

The difference the two supplies make in current drawn
by the circuit may be of some significance.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #43 on: 2019-10-22, 21:58:37 »

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Quote from: muDped on 2019-10-22, 07:24:22
JimBoot,

Has your 2.48K base bias resistor been selected as an
optimized value for a specific voltage range?

Do you think that a variable resistance in place of the
fixed 2.48K may offer enhanced versatility?

The difference the two supplies make in current drawn
by the circuit may be of some significance.
The Circuit is one of Laurent's from years ago. I can certainly swap in  pot and check. Thanks.
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #44 on: 2019-10-26, 11:28:45 »

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I've been testing the rectifier with two modern AC - AC transformers and have burnt out both. I get the same effect though as using the PS original transformer.

So if the rectifier is breaking down and presumably drawing too much current from the the AC source,
1. why does it's half rectified output work so well when a power diode does not?
2. why does it work when connected to the rectifier in parallel when it doesn't have an external load?

The exciter circuit draws 100ma whether it is connected parallel or series with the rectifier measured with a DC panel meter.
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #45 on: 2019-10-26, 17:24:11 »
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Jim
Quote
Yep same scope . :) I did not test the rectifiers legs. I observed the 358v and atm I think it is just the scopes' inability to measure it. I have tested other modern AC step down transformers on the same channel with the same lead. The voltage measurement on the scope is as expected. My transistor would be fried at that voltage but it runs cool.

It's debatable, I believe your using a 3055 which is a real workhorse and takes an absurd amount of abuse. As well a NPN or PNP transistor is basically two diodes back to back which is how we test them. So a fast transient could appear as a higher voltage across the internal "diode" and/or circuit leg because of it's resistance.

Quote
In the video the circuit was not operating as I do not want to damage my scope. In tests the scope is replaced with the circuit. I can run the circuit with the  selenium rectifier in parallel, with and without power diode. That is what those waveforms are showing. The second image has no power diode and the rectifier is in parallel. The circuit oscillates. It does not with normal AC.

Ah, okay, if the rectifier is in parallel then I suspect it's breaking down and either clipping the AC and/or producing an inductive discharge from the transformer oscillating through the circuit. Like a variable voltage switch which only comes on/breaks down when a given voltage is exceeded.

Quote
It looks as if some reverse voltage is getting through to create spiked waveform? The rectifier seems to add a load but I have not measured it. This is why I think it is faulty. I think I need to measure the load it adds.

An inductive discharge will reverse the voltage signs but the electron current does not reverse. The only way to really tell is to measure both the voltage and current simultaneously. I like to use a hall effect current sensor for isolation and to avoid HV spikes and ground currents through the scope... not cool. You can also use an opto-isolator/voltage divider circuit to isolate your scope from the circuit.

Regards


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #46 on: 2019-10-28, 06:44:19 »
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Jim

These posts are getting a little off topic but if you are interested in these Zenneck Wave functions there are some simple thought experiments one can do.

In my opinion it's important to concentrate on key words, ie. Quote:  "The Zenneck wave, Zenneck surface wave or Sommerfeld-Zenneck surface wave is a longitudinal, inhomogeneous or non-uniform electromagnetic plane wave". So what are the key words?, longitudinal and non-uniform stand out in my opinion. It stands out in my mind because of my research in Weber Electrodynamics which Maxwell discarded in his work. There is in fact a completely different set of theory which remains obscure but is no less relevant in Weber's work.

Think of it this way Jim, we take a string 2m long attached to a wall and we give it a snap. The string takes the form of a sine wave, the wave moving back and forth, up and down in known ways. However what Weber was proposing was that we could give the string a snap, let go and the string would propel itself forward due to it's own inherent kinetic energy as a singular object not unlike a baseball. The string keeps oscillating however it is not attached to anything thus it's energy can only act in the same direction it is traveling thus it must be "longitudinal" in it's nature. Longitudinal simply means, acting in the same direction something it is travelling.

Think about that, we snap a string producing a sine wave like motion we all know ... but then we let go of the string and the energy of the string becomes an entity, a force, in and of itself because it is detached from everything else. So what is it?, in all my research there is only one definition that describes this and it is a Solition wave. As such the only real question which remains is how can we reproduce this effect in an electrical device in the real world.

I'm just not sure I understand how your textbook AC rectifier problem relates to our problem with sending megawatts of power thousands of miles without wires.

Regards


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  JimBoot
Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #47 on: 2019-10-28, 11:14:43 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2019-10-28, 06:44:19
Jim

These posts are getting a little off topic but if you are interested in these Zenneck Wave functions there are some simple thought experiments one can do.

In my opinion it's important to concentrate on key words, ie. Quote:  "The Zenneck wave, Zenneck surface wave or Sommerfeld-Zenneck surface wave is a longitudinal, inhomogeneous or non-uniform electromagnetic plane wave". So what are the key words?, longitudinal and non-uniform stand out in my opinion. It stands out in my mind because of my research in Weber Electrodynamics which Maxwell discarded in his work. There is in fact a completely different set of theory which remains obscure but is no less relevant in Weber's work.

Think of it this way Jim, we take a string 2m long attached to a wall and we give it a snap. The string takes the form of a sine wave, the wave moving back and forth, up and down in known ways. However what Weber was proposing was that we could give the string a snap, let go and the string would propel itself forward due to it's own inherent kinetic energy as a singular object not unlike a baseball. The string keeps oscillating however it is not attached to anything thus it's energy can only act in the same direction it is traveling thus it must be "longitudinal" in it's nature. Longitudinal simply means, acting in the same direction something it is travelling.

Think about that, we snap a string producing a sine wave like motion we all know ... but then we let go of the string and the energy of the string becomes an entity, a force, in and of itself because it is detached from everything else. So what is it?, in all my research there is only one definition that describes this and it is a Solition wave. As such the only real question which remains is how can we reproduce this effect in an electrical device in the real world.

I'm just not sure I understand how your textbook AC rectifier problem relates to our problem with sending megawatts of power thousands of miles without wires.

Regards

As I said if it considered OT mods should remove. Wesley stated in another thread that using a spark gap to power tower will introduce a greater range of frequencies. Before I move onto that I'm trying to understand what's happening here. I'm curious to know if either phase shift or or something with going on with the signal is worthy of further investigation. I'm a dog with a bone. I don't think it's the transients but I have no real data to support that. I appreciate you taking a look. This power supply has intrigued me for some time. Here it is from 8 years ago when it was working properly. The video is a mess and it was in a very small space. Looking back at the plasma spewing off this coil amazes me looking back now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6T8vutgPHY
   
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Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #48 on: 2024-02-27, 13:16:38 »
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« Last Edit: 2024-02-29, 18:14:22 by stivep »
   
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Re: Experimental and Theoretical Realization of Zenneck Wave « Reply #49 on: 2024-02-27, 13:53:08 »
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« Last Edit: 2024-03-04, 17:07:23 by Chet K »
   
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