Are neon sign transformers already OU ?

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Author Topic: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? (Read 8456 times)

Enigma	Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « on: 2015-04-11, 21:59:04 »
Group: Guest	@ All. I have in my hand a Hansen EVG 20-3 Neon sign transformer. Reading input 230v 0.20 A 50 hz Output 3000v 20 mA 25 kHz 14 W OU ? What's the deal ? E??

TinselKoala	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #1 on: 2015-04-12, 00:05:23 »
Group: Guest	Well... the very first thing to do would be to check the Data Sheet. It can be very... enlightening. ------------------------ neon-evg-20-3-e_hansen.pdf (114.43 kB - downloaded 223 times.)

TinMan	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #2 on: 2015-04-12, 03:28:24 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: TinselKoala on 2015-04-12, 00:05:23 Well... the very first thing to do would be to check the Data Sheet. It can be very... enlightening. I just checked the data sheet you linked TK,and here is the info i see on there. Input 230 V, +/- 10 %, 50 / 60 Hz Depends on the connected tube load; max. 0.35 A cos phi 0.95<--- power factor seems pretty good here Taking into account the power factor,we have an input of 76.47 watts Output 3,000 V with 20 mA constant current, Here the output seems to show 60 watt's. So the efficiency is around 78.46% Bugga--missed another OU device. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Aking.21	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #3 on: 2015-04-12, 18:35:40 »
Sr. Member Posts: 420	As you say looking at specs can be very revealing ------------------------ Are neon sign transformers already OU ? OUNEONTRAFO.jpg (20.62 kB, 801x253 - viewed 592 times.) --------------------------- Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KW charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

Aking.21	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #4 on: 2015-04-12, 19:08:57 »
Sr. Member Posts: 420	Stunned silence?? OK let's do the math as the US would say. 120x 2.36 = 283.2 watts in.. Correct? 12,000 x 0.042 = 504 watts out. Correct? So the device gives out 505 -283.2 = 220.8 watts more than it consumes. Is that correct?? WHY THE STUNNED SILENCE?? ------------------------ Are neon sign transformers already OU ? OUNEONTRAFO.jpg (20.62 kB, 801x253 - viewed 561 times.) --------------------------- Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KW charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

forest	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #5 on: 2015-04-12, 19:29:14 »
Sr. Member Posts: 472	I heard it's measured in different situations. Input power is in closed circuit , output in spark gap. The difference can be used only in Tesla method of conversion circuit ;-)

Itsu	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #6 on: 2015-04-12, 19:47:33 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Google is your friend: http://www.overunity.com/9322/are-neon-sign-transformers-overunity/msg245807/#msg245807 Regards Itsu

TinselKoala	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #7 on: 2015-04-12, 20:20:14 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Aking.21 on 2015-04-12, 19:08:57 Stunned silence?? OK let's do the math as the US would say. 120x 2.36 = 283.2 watts in.. Correct? 12,000 x 0.042 = 504 watts out. Correct? So the device gives out 505 -283.2 = 220.8 watts more than it consumes. Is that correct?? WHY THE STUNNED SILENCE?? The "Stunned silence" is because "some people" look at Data Plates and claim OU from what the data plate says. We actually see this quite frequently, as when Steve Spisak measures the input power to an unloaded motor-generator using a DMM and then looks at the Data Plate for an "output" measurement, even though there is no load attached to the output. It's just too bad you can't run a home on a Data Plate. Maybe if you collected enough of them and connected them in series..... (ETA: I can't find a Data Sheet for that particular transformer but the _truth_ will be something like Tinman's calculation using the numbers from the other transformer's data sheet as compared to its Data Plate.)

Paul-R	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #8 on: 2015-04-12, 23:55:42 »
Hero Member Posts: 1579	Let us remember that the transformer, sat on a table, is no more capable of being OU than the common London fletton.

TinMan	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #9 on: 2015-04-13, 05:06:37 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Aking.21 on 2015-04-12, 19:08:57 Stunned silence?? OK let's do the math as the US would say. 120x 2.36 = 283.2 watts in.. Correct? 12,000 x 0.042 = 504 watts out. Correct? So the device gives out 505 -283.2 = 220.8 watts more than it consumes. Is that correct?? WHY THE STUNNED SILENCE?? Lol-no it dosnt give out 220 watts more. 12000v is P/P voltage. Vrms is 0.3535 x Vpp vrms =4242 4242 x .042=178.164 watts 178.164 / 283.2 x 100 =62.91% efficiency. Not a very efficient OU transformer that one --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Farmhand	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #10 on: 2015-04-13, 05:17:40 »
Group: Guest	The spec plate gives the input, (maybe rated average current), but for the output the voltage is open circuit voltage and the current is short circuit current so it gives max values for both V and A for the output, however that never happens in reality, in reality they will be both less I would say. The neon uses the HV to "strike" and conduction lowers the applied voltage. Similar to a fluro. there is a voltage drop across the powered tube. There is no OU neon sign transformers nor any other type of OU transformer. There is also no neon sign transformers that output more real power than is input. Just to say it two ways. And the fact that Don Smith swore they were OU tells me he was absolutely full of it. And all his stuff was faked. ..

Aking.21	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #11 on: 2015-04-13, 09:05:03 »
Sr. Member Posts: 420	So let us do some more mathematics. Assuming the output is peak to peak we have: 504x 0.707 = 356.328 watts r.m.s. so 283.2 watts in 356.328 watts out = 73.128 watts over unity correct? Or are we going to put our heads in the sand and say maths doesn't work with electronics " except when it gives the results I want." --------------------------- Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KW charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

Smudge	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #12 on: 2015-04-13, 12:20:08 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: Aking.21 on 2015-04-13, 09:05:03 So let us do some more mathematics. Assuming the output is peak to peak we have: 504x 0.707 = 356.328 watts r.m.s. so 283.2 watts in 356.328 watts out = 73.128 watts over unity correct? Or are we going to put our heads in the sand and say maths doesn't work with electronics " except when it gives the results I want." You can't assume peak to peak for the power waveform you get from AC current and voltage. Nor can you talk about rms watts, that is gibberish. The power waveform obtained by multiplying sine-wave voltage by sine-wave current is a sine-squared function that is all positive and is a sinewave at twice the frequency sitting on zero, mathematically 1/2 + sin(2wt)/2. It is the average value of this power waveform that you should use. You are in good company in getting it wrong, Bearden's original paper on the MEG shows the math channel of a tek scope being incorrectly used to compute the rms value of the power waveform. Tinman got the math right. Smudge « Last Edit: 2015-04-13, 14:02:13 by Smudge »

TinMan	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #13 on: 2015-04-13, 12:37:12 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Aking.21 on 2015-04-13, 09:05:03 So let us do some more mathematics. Assuming the output is peak to peak we have: 504x 0.707 = 356.328 watts r.m.s. so 283.2 watts in 356.328 watts out = 73.128 watts over unity correct? Or are we going to put our heads in the sand and say maths doesn't work with electronics " except when it gives the results I want." Quote 504x 0.707 = 356.328 watts r.m.s. How did you come up with this from 12000 vpp ?. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Duncan	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #14 on: 2015-04-13, 12:41:38 »
Hero Member Posts: 702	not a sine wave --- nothing like! --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf whilst we know little .. friends remember, In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. D. Erasmus

Aking.21	Re: Are neon sign transformers already OU ? « Reply #15 on: 2015-04-13, 15:51:38 »
Sr. Member Posts: 420	Ok thanks for the info. Much appreciated. --------------------------- Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KW charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

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