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OverUnity Research > Thermally-Powered Devices > Heat to Electrical Power Conversion > Temperature at equilibrium
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Author Topic: Temperature at equilibrium  (Read 7728 times)
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img  GibbsHelmholtz
Temperature at equilibrium « on: 2012-12-14, 04:36:24 »
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Would a temperature difference exist in a closed container of water and air?

Each time a water molecule evaporate, it takes some heat with it and cool the water.  Each time a water molecule condense, it release the same heat.  So should we detect a temperature difference? 



   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #1 on: 2012-12-14, 13:58:05 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-12-14, 04:36:24
Would a temperature difference exist in a closed container of water and air?

No, there will be an equilibrium. The evaporation will disappear due to a pressure increase while the temperature of each component become uniform and reach the environmental temperature.

   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #2 on: 2012-12-14, 14:11:11 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-12-14, 13:58:05
No, there will be an equilibrium. The evaporation will disappear due to a pressure increase while the temperature of each component become uniform and reach the environmental temperature.



Oh, I don't mean it's hot and and transitions  to room temperature.  It is already at equilibrium.  Even at equilibrium, some molecule evaporate and some condense back. 



   
img  gyula
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #3 on: 2012-12-14, 23:28:08 »
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Is the closed container isolated from enviroment?  If not, don't we have to consider that water conducts heat better than air?
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #4 on: 2012-12-16, 14:53:47 »
Group: Guest
Hi Gyula,

Yes, the container is isolated from environment.  However, I think the water vapor changes phase at every location in the air so that temperature alternating every point.  This is similar to Brownian motion. 

In term of electricity, I think Brownian motion for electricity is background EM radiation.  Of course it's possible for us to tap into EM radiation.  If we could build a radiometer that is sensitive enough to work off background radiation, it would runs 24/7.  However, as researching more, I found there are two principles to radiation.  One is absorbing radiation and one is reflecting radiation.  I'm now interesting in the case of reflecting radiation causing pressure.  I believe we can produce radiation pressure and tap into it and has been doing it for a long time. 

 
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Wind turbine violates Thermodynamic equilibirum « Reply #5 on: 2012-12-19, 03:09:41 »
Group: Guest
If one is as big as the galaxy looking at the earth and see wind motion, he may thinks it's at equilibrium since the net wind pressure is zero.  If he makes a nano wind turbine to extract wind motion, he would fails since his turbine will be as big as a mountain.  Wind from the north may hit part of the turbine while wind from the south with opposite direction hitting another part of the turbine.  Overall, his turbine would stall.  Yet, we're running our turbine and storing energy.

Equilibrium does not apply to locality.  Thermodynamics would not accept this state as either global or local equilibrium but the assumption always breaks down at microscopic level.  
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #6 on: 2012-12-19, 10:33:09 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-12-14, 14:11:11
Oh, I don't mean it's hot and and transitions  to room temperature.  It is already at equilibrium.  Even at equilibrium, some molecule evaporate and some condense back. 

I agree. It's like noise in a resistance: you will have to "rectify" the motion of the evaporating/condensing molecules to get a useful work.
An idea?
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #7 on: 2012-12-19, 13:23:54 »
Group: Guest
I'm doing various experiment to detect ambient energy.  It works when there is high radiation but not sure if sensitive enough to pick up anything from background.  I'll give it more time to collect if any energy.

The argument is if there is a black and white object submerging in an equilibrium environment, the black object would be at higher temperature.  If we take the heat out before it radiates out, then such can extract work. 

   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #8 on: 2012-12-22, 22:06:19 »
Group: Guest

Going around in circles have me connected.  We have Compton scattering and Reverse Compton scattering.  In addition, we have something similar in principle call Stokes fluorescence and anti-Stokes fluorescence.  I believe these are also the same as the sling shot effect.  For more information:

http://usna.edu/Users/physics/mungan/Publications/synopsis.html#three

There has been some controversy over whether this concept is possible based on thermodynamics. 
"The idea that anti-Stokes fluorescence might be used to cool a material is a surprisingly old one, proposed as early as 1929 by Pringsheim [2]. This proposal led some 16 years later to a rather spirited debate between Pringsheim and Vavilov, with the latter claiming that its realization is impossible on thermodynamic grounds [3]. Landau himself had to step into the controversy [4] and proved that the entropy lost by the sample upon cooling is more than compensated for by an increase in the entropy of the light, resulting from the loss of monochromaticity, phase coherence, and directionality of the beam. "

Eventually the conclusion was this is not an OU process according to Landau.  I value your thinking whether this is an OU process.  Can we extract more work from the output than what we put in. 

More importantly, can we create this effect with oscillating circuits.   
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #9 on: 2013-02-18, 19:53:01 »
Group: Guest
So I made a setup to collect ambient energy several weeks ago.  It's a two bottles setup with tube connected.  Initially, one bottle is filled with water and the other one is empty.  I have left it there forgotten.  I picked it up today and see significant amount of water in the empty container.  Being half joy and half frustration, I yelled did anyone knock over these bottles. lol  The lady said no.  I was happy hoping she's right and pointed at the bottle: " You see, there is water in the empty bottle".  She saids, " Of course, there is more water in the other bottle, so it evaporate to the empty one".  Her intuition is correct but I'm not sure she's right.  Both of the bottles were at equal pressure and temperature. 

   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #10 on: 2013-02-21, 15:22:11 »
Group: Guest
I made 2 cups, one is water and one is salt water.

Put them in the microwave for 20 seconds.  The temperature measure in the salt water is higher than plain water.  After several seconds cooling down, temperature is measured again and this time salt water is at a lower temperature than plain water.

This says that salt water able to absorb more radiation and gives out more heat than plain water. 
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Temperature at equilibrium « Reply #11 on: 2013-03-13, 04:40:35 »
Group: Guest
I am able to create a temperature difference at room temperature.  The process is evaporative cooling.  Although this is considered osmotic power, I have not seen it being exploited. 

The trick is to design a heat sink with high ratio of surface area to volume of water.  I've seen up to 10 degrees difference but expect higher with better ratio. 

   
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